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Old 30-03-18, 02:50 PM   #31
maviczap
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Default Re: London not to include motorcycle in it's traffic congestion strategy

Disapointed you didn't read my post properly, the source of my stats was official gov stats

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...cgb2016-01.pdf

The ROSPA fact sheet precis it

https://www.rospa.com/road-safety/ad...facts-figures/

UK Govenment reported road casulties

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...cgb2016-01.pdf

Why is it ok to have presumed liability in every country in the EU, but not in the UK, where the biggest cause of road deaths and serious injury

A quote from Lord Denning in 1982

"in the present state of motor traffic I am persuaded that any civilised system of law should require, as a matter of principle, that the person who uses this dangerous instrument on the road dealing death and destruction all round should be liable to make compensation to anyone who is killed or injured in consequence of the use of it. There should be liability without proof of fault. To require an injured person to prove fault is the gravest injustice to many innocent persons who have not the wherewithal to prove it."
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Old 30-03-18, 07:30 PM   #32
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Default Re: London not to include motorcycle in it's traffic congestion strategy

Cyclists and motorcyclists, of which I am both, really should look out for each other. Sure there are a-hole cyclists, but I would much rather come across one of those than an a-hole car driver. Obviously there are no a-hole bikers

It never ceases to amaze me when I hear bikers slating cyclists, and vice versa, we are in the same boat FFS.

I always give cyclists room and consideration when on the mbike, or in the car. Why not?
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Old 30-03-18, 07:42 PM   #33
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Default Re: London not to include motorcycle in it's traffic congestion strategy

Careful you'll be labelled a fanatic like me
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Old 30-03-18, 07:51 PM   #34
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Default Re: London not to include motorcycle in it's traffic congestion strategy

I posted similar views on a cycling forum where they were slating bikers. Some of them replied as if I was some sort of Antichrist.

So yes there are some real a-hole cyclists, and whilst I might want to punch them, I certainly would not want to put them in a life threatening situation....let alone myself.

Its not a war out there, or if it is, we are in the firing line, like the cyclists.
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Old 30-03-18, 07:59 PM   #35
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Default Re: London not to include motorcycle in it's traffic congestion strategy

Aholes in every branch of road users I'm afraid
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Old 30-03-18, 10:19 PM   #36
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Default Re: London not to include motorcycle in it's traffic congestion strategy

I'm not going to argue with any suggestion that we should try and make our roads safer, and I'm certainly in favour of trying to achieve that by improving driver and rider behaviour, both of those with and without engines..... rather than through more and more legislation, however my original point still remains unanswered.

Your suggestion was that introducing a presumption of fault on the part of the motorist would improve driver behaviour and reduce casualties, and I pointed out that countries that already do so have a worse casualty rate than we do. Nothing you have subsequently said has explained why that is the case.

The entire British legal system works on the presumption of innocence until shown otherwise. In practice nothing should be presumed, every incident should, and generally is, examined and directed according to the information available and the circumstances prevailing. I for one hope that will continue to be the case. In my experience once a presumption is adopted in the belief that it will support one side of a case it is widely abused, such as it has been in domestic violence and sexual abuse cases recently. Be careful what you wish for folks.
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Old 31-03-18, 06:30 AM   #37
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Default Re: London not to include motorcycle in it's traffic congestion strategy

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The entire British legal system works on the presumption of innocence until shown otherwise. In practice nothing should be presumed, every incident should, and generally is, examined and directed according to the information available and the circumstances prevailing. .
This'll be my last on this, presumed liability does nothing to change the need to prove Innocence or Guilt, that's Criminal Law.

What it does is transfer is instead of the cyclist or pedestrian having to prove the motorist was at fault, it puts the onus on the motorist to prove they were negligent. This way damages can be claimed from the motorists insurance, but can be challenged. This'll be dealt with under Civil law

With the advent of dash cams it's a whole lot easier for the motorist to show the stupid cyclist or pedestrian was negligent. Much harder for the cyclist or pedestrian to show negligence on the motorists part

https://www.slatergordon.co.uk/media...-uk-vs-europe/

http://www.cyclealert.com/presumed-liability-the-facts/
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Old 31-03-18, 07:44 AM   #38
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Default Re: London not to include motorcycle in it's traffic congestion strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by maviczap View Post
...
3142 reported serious injuries to cyclists
57% as a attributed of drivers pulling out, crossing the path is sorry mate I didn't see you
43% were attributed to cyclists being at fault, pulling out, not stopping.at junctions etc
Govt figures
.....
And figures quoted by you. So basically in 57% of crashes the motorist was found to be responsible and would have been liable, and in 43% the cyclist was found to be responsible and the motorist was therefore not liable. I guess bringing in a system of presumed liability against the motorist would make it a whole lot more easier to claim against them if responsibility for the incident couldn't be established. I'm not very good at maths, what percentage was that?

Or are you seriously suggesting there should be a system where, even though the incident isn't attributable to them, the motorist should pay compensation? I'm trying to think of a better incentive for motorists not to stop at the scene of any incident but failing miserably.
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Old 31-03-18, 08:54 AM   #39
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Default Re: London not to include motorcycle in it's traffic congestion strategy

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Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
And figures quoted by you. So basically in 57% of crashes the motorist was found to be responsible and would have been liable, and in 43% the cyclist was found to be responsible and the motorist was therefore not liable. I guess bringing in a system of presumed liability against the motorist would make it a whole lot more easier to claim against them if responsibility for the incident couldn't be established. I'm not very good at maths, what percentage was that?

Or are you seriously suggesting there should be a system where, even though the incident isn't attributable to them, the motorist should pay compensation? I'm trying to think of a better incentive for motorists not to stop at the scene of any incident but failing miserably.
+1

Positive discrimination is every bit as bad as the other kind, if anything it may make cyclists more reckless if they know they will be always presumed to be in the right. Every case should be looked at with unbiased eyes, otherwise it is not justice as I understand it.

I don't think I have ever seen a rear view mirror on a cycle, and cyclists seem to fall into two categories where lights are concerned, they either have the eye scorching powerful rechargeable LED lights, which are angled in such a way they can temporarily blind other road users or they have no lights or reflective gear at all and appear suddenly like ghosts in your headlight beam.
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Last edited by SV650rules; 31-03-18 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 31-03-18, 11:54 AM   #40
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Default Re: London not to include motorcycle in it's traffic congestion strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by maviczap View Post
Disapointed you didn't read my post properly, the source of my stats was official gov stats
I did read your post, you made no mention of any source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maviczap View Post
Your post talks of a percentage increase in 2017 but all your links only provide statistics up to 2016.
Therefore your claim regarding 2017 is unsubstantiated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maviczap View Post
Why is it ok to have presumed liability in every country in the EU, but not in the UK, where the biggest cause of road deaths and serious injury
Its not OK, clearly these countries legal systems are inferior to ours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maviczap View Post
A quote from Lord Denning in 1982

"in the present state of motor traffic I am persuaded that any civilised system of law should require, as a matter of principle, that the person who uses this dangerous instrument on the road dealing death and destruction all round should be liable to make compensation to anyone who is killed or injured in consequence of the use of it. There should be liability without proof of fault. To require an injured person to prove fault is the gravest injustice to many innocent persons who have not the wherewithal to prove it."
Oh dear, careful who you quote.
Lord Denning isn't someone I would have chosen to lecture us regarding a "civilised system of law".

Here's part of an interview...

Interviewer: Nevertheless, were you glad to see the death penalty abolished?
Denning: Not really. It ought to be retained for murder most foul.
We shouldn't have all these campaigns to get the Birmingham Six released if they'd been hanged.
They'd have been forgotten, and the whole community would be satisfied.
Interviewer: But would justice have been satisfied if the wrong men had been hanged?
Denning: (chuckles) No. There is always that danger.
Interviewer: If they had hanged the Guildford Four they would have hanged the wrong men, wouldn't they?
Denning: No. They'd probably have hanged the right men. Not proved against them, that's all.


Source: http://archive.spectator.co.uk/artic...nd-his-england


That's just a quick taster of the man, besides being happy to see innocent men hanged he had other horrendous opinions as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maviczap View Post
This'll be my last on this
I always think its a mistake to make such pronouncements.
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