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Old 05-06-20, 06:40 AM   #21
R1ffR4ff
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Default Re: White lines?

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Originally Posted by redtrummy View Post
My understanding is that you can cross double white lines to overtake traffic moving less than 10mph. It was a long time ago I read it somewhere so might have been revised
Seems you are pretty much right,

https://www.uk-driving-test.com/double-white-lines.php

HTH
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Old 05-06-20, 09:01 AM   #22
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Default Re: White lines?

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Originally Posted by R1ffR4ff View Post
Seems you are pretty much right,

https://www.uk-driving-test.com/double-white-lines.php

HTH
But only for specific vehicle types, not general traffic. You can also cross a line to pass a stationary vehicle, but I've no idea if that includes queueing traffic or just parked cars (not that cars are allowed to park there).
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Old 05-06-20, 11:35 AM   #23
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Default Re: White lines?

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Originally Posted by daktulos View Post
But only for specific vehicle types, not general traffic. You can also cross a line to pass a stationary vehicle, but I've no idea if that includes queueing traffic or just parked cars (not that cars are allowed to park there).
And you can pass moving traffic in the same lane on solid whites if safe to do so and no part of you crosses the line.
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Old 05-06-20, 01:08 PM   #24
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Default Re: White lines?

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Originally Posted by daktulos View Post
But only for specific vehicle types, not general traffic. You can also cross a line to pass a stationary vehicle, but I've no idea if that includes queueing traffic or just parked cars (not that cars are allowed to park there).

From the Ex GMP motorcycle instructor - Stationary vehicles does not include queuing traffic (that comes under filtering).


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Old 05-06-20, 09:12 PM   #25
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Default Re: White lines?

this is white lines https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsTJaP2tC0A
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Old 05-06-20, 09:13 PM   #26
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Default Re: White lines?

Been sitting here watching this thread with interest as this is one of my pet subjects that I regularly get asked about and it's good to get a reminder sometimes what the common understanding is.

The rules we are talking about here are under Regulation 26 of the The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. Here's a link if you want to read it in full.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...lation/26/made

Just to clarify a couple of points raised, the rules say the white line must be kept to the right or offside of the vehicle so technically if any part of the vehicle is overhanging the line then that would be illegal unless one of the exceptions apply. From a practical point of view the vast majority of coppers will be looking at your wheels and they need to stay to the left of the nearest line, so not on or over it. Obviously if you have super wide panniers and take an oncoming police cars wing mirror off with them then you might expect a different point of view......

No you can't overtake any vehicle travelling less than 10mph. It has to be a road maintenance vehicle and it has to be displaying the appropriate sign, which is basically a keep right sign (think road sweeper).

Yes you can cross a solid white line to pass a stationery vehicle, but be very carful because that can be a minefield!

Without starting a whole new debate you need to appreciate there is a difference between Traffic Law, which is passed by government, and Traffic Lore, which is basically a policeman understanding of it..... Traffic Lore comes about through policemen doing something a certain way and it getting passed along the line by successive generations. The difficulty in this instance comes about through their interpretation of the word "necessary".

Paragraph (2)(b) is the one that says you must keep the solid line on the right.

The wording of paragraph 6 is....

Nothing in paragraph (2)(b) shall be taken to prohibit a vehicle from being driven across, or so as to straddle, the continuous line referred to in that paragraph, if it is safe to do so and if necessary to do so—

It then lists the reasons you can do so and the second one is "in order to pass a stationery vehicle".

So basically you can cross the solid white line if it is safe and necessary to pass a stationery vehicle. Now read that paragraph again. Is it saying you can do it if it is necessary to cross the line in order to pass the vehicle, or is it saying you can only do it if it is necessary to pass the vehicle?

Now the legislation actually makes it illegal to stop within a solid white line system except in certain cases, for example to set down and pick up a person or to load or unload (amongst others). Having made provision for a vehicle to be allowed to stop it follows that they had to provide opportunity for other traffic to go around them, hence Paragraph 6, otherwise you would have to sit there until they had finished loading etc etc.... This has led to the police view that you can only cross the white line to go around a vehicle that is stopped for one of the purposes listed, and as queuing traffic isn't one of them...... They support this argument by saying it isn't necessary to pass queuing traffic as it will move off shortly and therefore you don't need to pass it..... there interpretation of the word necessary being applied to the need to pass the vehicle.

Those that argue for the other interpretation say that the word necessary applies to the need to cross the white line. Can you get past the stationery vehicle without crossing the white line? If you can then you do not need to cross it and to do so would be illegal, if you do need to cross it then it would not be. Fairly simple really.

Lets put that into a practical scenario to make it easier to understand. You are following a bus and it stops to pick up passengers. There is a solid white line but you can see right past the bus and there is nothing coming the other way. It is safe for you to pull out and go around the bus so you do so, all perfectly legal according to the legislation and most police officers.

Now you are following the same bus but there is a car ahead of you between you and the bus. The bus stops and the car driver, being a car driver and totally ignorant of all things related to traffic law let alone the need to look beyond the end of their bonnet, stops right up the bus's bum where they can't see a thing. You on the other hand being a switched on biker have hung back a bit and have a great view past them both. Nothing coming, perfectly safe to pass, so you do so (obviously taking lots of care in case the kid that just got off the bus runs out in front of it...). Legal or not? In the eyes of the police not, because the car behind the bus was queuing and you didn't need to pass. That's how stupid their argument is.

The problem with arguments and views like this is they are allowed to spread. Take the IAM for example, supposedly our leading civilian organization on all things advanced about driving and riding. They have provided plenty of jobs for ex coppers, including your truly, and some of them are the people setting their standards. Guess which view they hold around white lines? I've had numerous rows with them over this particular topic and when you hit them with the kind of logic I have used here they just repeat that "queuing traffic isn't stationery for the purposes of this legislation". They even paid a barrister to come up with a legal argument to support their view but what they produced wouldn't be worth the price of a cup of tea.......

For the record I should say right now I'm not a solicitor, lawyer, barrister or any other kind of individual who makes a living out of lying. I was however a copper for more years than I care to remember and I've torn up more prosecution files handed to me by eager traffic officers than I really should have.....

So much for my brief post..... Guys, there are two pieces of legislation that you, as motorcyclists, should know backwards. One is white lines for all the reasons I've just given, the other is around overtaking on pedestrian crossings. I don't want to be rude but it amazes me just how ignorant people can be of some basic traffic law, especially when there are so many opportunities to exploit it to your advantage if you know your stuff. I've had people presenting for advanced tests who don't know the basics, there really is no excuse.

Cheers, stay safe out there.
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Old 05-06-20, 09:29 PM   #27
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Default Re: White lines?

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Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
Cheers, stay safe out there.
Thanks for this, it was a really good read and it really helps to know the police point of view, as that's what sort of matters in reality.

I hadn't spotted the ambiguity with the "necessary" wording. I don't think I have ever filtered past queueing traffic on a solid white line, while I take your point about the bus, there is a danger of the car driver pulling out as you overtake - but that can happen with moving traffic, too.

Given everything you've said, I'm not going to change anything, but I may use my instinct if the situation dictates.
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Old 05-06-20, 09:39 PM   #28
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Default Re: White lines?

One of a few things I dislike about IAM is the ease at which things can be changed to suit.

Hold throttle open and quickshift up - not showing enough restraint or mechanical sympathy

Literally stuck behind two 4x4s towing trailers on a stretch of road with zero overtaking opportunity, there was never the time or space to perform the overtake safely (the examiner said he would have been long gone) - not making enough progress.

Tear on fella, it's my bike, my insurance and my life..

Overtaking HGV on motorway with another HGV well in the distance, do all the things and move back to lane 1 (as per Highway code) - that was wrong too...

Last edited by Chris_SVS; 05-06-20 at 09:43 PM.
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Old 06-06-20, 11:19 AM   #29
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Default Re: White lines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
Been sitting here watching this thread with interest as this is one of my pet subjects that I regularly get asked about and it's good to get a reminder sometimes what the common understanding is.

The rules we are talking about here are under Regulation 26 of the The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. Here's a link if you want to read it in full.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...lation/26/made

Just to clarify a couple of points raised, the rules say the white line must be kept to the right or offside of the vehicle so technically if any part of the vehicle is overhanging the line then that would be illegal unless one of the exceptions apply. From a practical point of view the vast majority of coppers will be looking at your wheels and they need to stay to the left of the nearest line, so not on or over it. Obviously if you have super wide panniers and take an oncoming police cars wing mirror off with them then you might expect a different point of view......

No you can't overtake any vehicle travelling less than 10mph. It has to be a road maintenance vehicle and it has to be displaying the appropriate sign, which is basically a keep right sign (think road sweeper).

Yes you can cross a solid white line to pass a stationery vehicle, but be very carful because that can be a minefield!

Without starting a whole new debate you need to appreciate there is a difference between Traffic Law, which is passed by government, and Traffic Lore, which is basically a policeman understanding of it..... Traffic Lore comes about through policemen doing something a certain way and it getting passed along the line by successive generations. The difficulty in this instance comes about through their interpretation of the word "necessary".

Paragraph (2)(b) is the one that says you must keep the solid line on the right.

The wording of paragraph 6 is....

Nothing in paragraph (2)(b) shall be taken to prohibit a vehicle from being driven across, or so as to straddle, the continuous line referred to in that paragraph, if it is safe to do so and if necessary to do so—

It then lists the reasons you can do so and the second one is "in order to pass a stationery vehicle".

So basically you can cross the solid white line if it is safe and necessary to pass a stationery vehicle. Now read that paragraph again. Is it saying you can do it if it is necessary to cross the line in order to pass the vehicle, or is it saying you can only do it if it is necessary to pass the vehicle?

Now the legislation actually makes it illegal to stop within a solid white line system except in certain cases, for example to set down and pick up a person or to load or unload (amongst others). Having made provision for a vehicle to be allowed to stop it follows that they had to provide opportunity for other traffic to go around them, hence Paragraph 6, otherwise you would have to sit there until they had finished loading etc etc.... This has led to the police view that you can only cross the white line to go around a vehicle that is stopped for one of the purposes listed, and as queuing traffic isn't one of them...... They support this argument by saying it isn't necessary to pass queuing traffic as it will move off shortly and therefore you don't need to pass it..... there interpretation of the word necessary being applied to the need to pass the vehicle.

Those that argue for the other interpretation say that the word necessary applies to the need to cross the white line. Can you get past the stationery vehicle without crossing the white line? If you can then you do not need to cross it and to do so would be illegal, if you do need to cross it then it would not be. Fairly simple really.

Lets put that into a practical scenario to make it easier to understand. You are following a bus and it stops to pick up passengers. There is a solid white line but you can see right past the bus and there is nothing coming the other way. It is safe for you to pull out and go around the bus so you do so, all perfectly legal according to the legislation and most police officers.

Now you are following the same bus but there is a car ahead of you between you and the bus. The bus stops and the car driver, being a car driver and totally ignorant of all things related to traffic law let alone the need to look beyond the end of their bonnet, stops right up the bus's bum where they can't see a thing. You on the other hand being a switched on biker have hung back a bit and have a great view past them both. Nothing coming, perfectly safe to pass, so you do so (obviously taking lots of care in case the kid that just got off the bus runs out in front of it...). Legal or not? In the eyes of the police not, because the car behind the bus was queuing and you didn't need to pass. That's how stupid their argument is.

The problem with arguments and views like this is they are allowed to spread. Take the IAM for example, supposedly our leading civilian organization on all things advanced about driving and riding. They have provided plenty of jobs for ex coppers, including your truly, and some of them are the people setting their standards. Guess which view they hold around white lines? I've had numerous rows with them over this particular topic and when you hit them with the kind of logic I have used here they just repeat that "queuing traffic isn't stationery for the purposes of this legislation". They even paid a barrister to come up with a legal argument to support their view but what they produced wouldn't be worth the price of a cup of tea.......

For the record I should say right now I'm not a solicitor, lawyer, barrister or any other kind of individual who makes a living out of lying. I was however a copper for more years than I care to remember and I've torn up more prosecution files handed to me by eager traffic officers than I really should have.....

So much for my brief post..... Guys, there are two pieces of legislation that you, as motorcyclists, should know backwards. One is white lines for all the reasons I've just given, the other is around overtaking on pedestrian crossings. I don't want to be rude but it amazes me just how ignorant people can be of some basic traffic law, especially when there are so many opportunities to exploit it to your advantage if you know your stuff. I've had people presenting for advanced tests who don't know the basics, there really is no excuse.

Cheers, stay safe out there.
Love it when RH wades in.

Pop quiz on ped. (the bad kind not the worst kind) crossings...you can filter the queue up until the vehicle closest to the crossing? A lot of people say you can't do it at all but I've always understood it to be the above in basic terms.

It's pretty clear why, but I recently saw a Kermit on a Ninja filter right next to the front vehicle (which was a van!). Light turns amber, the green power ranger is pretty much on his back wheel...the van doesn't move because a disabled person is still crossing and just appears into the bike's view as his throttle hits fully open
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Last edited by Dave20046; 06-06-20 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 06-06-20, 11:22 AM   #30
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Default Re: White lines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_SVS View Post
One of a few things I dislike about IAM is the ease at which things can be changed to suit.

Hold throttle open and quickshift up - not showing enough restraint or mechanical sympathy

Literally stuck behind two 4x4s towing trailers on a stretch of road with zero overtaking opportunity, there was never the time or space to perform the overtake safely (the examiner said he would have been long gone) - not making enough progress.

Tear on fella, it's my bike, my insurance and my life..

Overtaking HGV on motorway with another HGV well in the distance, do all the things and move back to lane 1 (as per Highway code) - that was wrong too...
Depending on the distance (but sounds like it's far enough) and what's around me (particularly behind) I'd be back in lane 1 too.
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