Charged with possession of a book?

Not in any way trying to make light of or justify the tube/bus bombings but I thought this - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6675165.stm - news story was somewhat interesting. Bloke has been charged, with possession of an al-Qaeda training manual.

I bet you can get those on ebay I thought Well, brief look didn't reveal any on ebay, but google lists just shy of a million hits, the top link being a translation on, of all sites, the US Department of Justice site (wonder if they're in breach of copyright by publishing that? ). I'll not link the site as I don't want to be knobbled for incitement to possess a training manual or something

Then I thought, what about chemistry students - surely anyone taking a chemistry degree (heck, even an A-level) could easily be training for the purposes of terrorism. And possession of a chemistry text book is surely going to enable the owner to use their knowledge of organic chemistry to make bombs.

I know that in theory it should all be a matter of context - for example, you're probably breaking some law by carrying a swiss army knife around, yet I always have one in my glove box and under the seat of my bike (you never know when you'll need to remove a stone from a horse's hoof!). It's just that context is such a grey area and subject to much individual interpretation - a white, elderly professor of terrorism studies would probably not be charged with possession of an al-Qaeda training manual, even if his only "excuse" was that it was purely of intellectual interest; yet would a jury buy the same excuse if the defendant was young and looked a bit foreign?

Dunno, I'm just a rabid liberal lefty but I just can't shake this feeling from my mind that banning possession of certain books was one of those scenes in 1984....

[SoulKiss]

Yep your swiss army knife is likely to land you in hot water - especially if you have one with a lock mechanism.

Almost ANYTHING you do these days can be considered a crime with the right interpretation.

What it means is that if they cant get you for something they suspect you of, they can get you on the minor thing - think of Capone and the Income tax thing.

I have a friend that is interested in WWII - he got given a book on the way that the French Resistance was set up.

We then figured out that as it tells you how resistance cells were set up, how to keep them separate so as to limit damage to the system if one group was discovered. Under the legal description, that book is a "Terror Manual"

Its all just part of the society we live in, where FUD is the name of the game - Fear, Uncertanty & Doubt.

Not the same at all but...

When boarding a plane bound for Scotland from Heathrow, I had my nail clippers removed from my possession.

As for the book, It has only one purpose. It's not as if it's a book on chemistry which "could" show how to make bombs.

why would you need an al-Qaeda training manual? apart from the obvious?

he was up to no good IMO

Originally Posted by MiniMatt

Dunno, I'm just a rabid liberal lefty but I just can't shake this feeling from my mind that banning possession of certain books was one of those scenes in 1984....

What, like a never ending war against an unseen enemy?

Like a beaten population dreaming of escape by winning a massive lottery?

Like speech and literature being governed by political correctness, sorry, newspeak?

And don't even get me started on the surveillance.

Originally Posted by hovis

why would you need an al-Qaeda training manual? apart from the obvious?

he was up to no good IMO

Purely intellectual curiosity? In the same way I found those instructions on how to make a plutonium bomb that circulated a few years back genuinely interesting. Never going to make one, and as a rabid liberal lefty, I hate the very thought of nuclear weapons; still find it all interesting though. Learning stuff is never bad, and learning about stuff you find abhorent is even better.

Now, the individual in question, well he probably was up to no good. But how do we know that, is it because he's a bit foreign? Young? Muslim?

I would like to know why he had the book.
If he isn't a possible terrorist, why have it.
I find it strange that he is from an arabic family and possesses a manual that can teach how to cause harm to others. To me it would be too far fetch to think he had it just to read out of curiosity.
No book or writing should be band unless it is specifically designed to cause harm to the general public. This particular book does exactly that, so yes it should be ( and is ) and the person who has it should be prosecuted.
In this case there is no grey area, but I know that there are books out there that people think should be band, however these books are usually just a personal opinion ( ie I believe that Guy Fawkes should have succeeded in blowing up parliament ) and therefore cannot be band due to free speech etc.

Originally Posted by hovis

why would you need an al-Qaeda training manual? apart from the obvious?

he was up to no good IMO

Originally Posted by MiniMatt

Purely intellectual curiosity?

i dont think so

Originally Posted by MiniMatt

Now, the individual in question, well he probably was up to no good. But how do we know that, is it because he's a bit foreign? Young? Muslim?

as the book is banned, he should be prosicuted, weather he intended to do anything or not.
IMO

Originally Posted by hovis

i dont think so

And if the defendant does think so, who's right?

Originally Posted by hovis

as the book is banned, he should be prosicuted, weather he intended to do anything or not.
IMO

That's kinda my concern, banning books just feels wrong to me. Sure if he's plotting some nefarious deed then charge with "conspiracy to blow the crap out of things" and I'd support that 100%. Simply being charged with simple ownership of writing seems wrong to me.

Not trying to start a flame war btw, you have your opinion and I have mine and I get the impression we'll probably never alter eachothers, I'll still buy you a pint if I ever get off my **** and get to one of the South West meets though

Oh, and on books of bad things - every one of these is written for one abhorent and nefarious purpose, but I bet they're all quite an interesting read: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Want-Police-...806502-1659844

[rictus01]

I'd have to come down on the side of MiniMatt here, books don't hurt anyone (OK the corners are a bit sharp if thrown ) but i've see more than a few "band2 books in my time, It's interesting to see what others dictate I should read, most of the time there is nothing even vaguely interesting and it was done more as a political tool than anything else, I remember some years back the spy book, had to get a copy from Australia as you couldn't buy it here, was crap, but apparently true about the secret service banning it made a crap book into a best seller, that worked well didn't it

From a different viewpoint, surely knowing about something is better than sticking your head in the sand, I've read a lot on other cultures, not that I agree with them, but being informed allows an educated opinion rather than a regurgitated one.

Cheers Mark.