Re: Council tax whinge
 

Well I understand why we tax at a national level as a percentage of everything and indeed this makes sense as we need to raise a **** load of money to run the country (no arguments over the amounts please). This is then shared out to benefit everyone, but predominantly those on lower incomes. I do have major issues with 'tiered' rates of income tax - again, why do the moderately successful and higher achievers have to pay tax at a higher RATE than those on lower incomes? Higher earners already pay more in tax because 25% of 40K is more than 25% of 10K.

But when it comes to funding local services, it is much less complex to calculate the needs and therefore budget of the council. The figure they can arrive at fairly accurately should then be simply divided up by all those that are meant to pay. There will still be net contributors and net consumers to the council's services, but at least it would seem to be fair. A local income tax will be punitive to anyone who makes an effort to get on in life (same as 40% income tax is) and many folks on a decent wage living in modest accommodation will see their bills leap. The current LIB DEM proposals will cost me about £1000 extra a year and I already pay over the odds. The Lib DEMS have no hope of getting anywhere while they stay with this policy, as their natural vote of middle class voters will be hit hard.

Grrrrrr it's my fecking money, let me keep some of it!!!!!

Re: Council tax whinge
 

Total tax burden has increased. That's really the only argument that can be used effectively. Claiming that one tax has risen without looking at other taxes, and ultimately the rate change of disposable income is setting yourself up to have your arguments shot down.

Furthermore - claiming, as has been done earlier in this thread, that the rate of council tax change is the fault of central government is a slippery slope. Undoubtedly central government has a huge effect on the rate of council tax, no matter how hard they try to say otherwise - but you must be aware that by putting the blame on central government one tends to imply that if central government gave more support to local government these funds would magic themselves out of thin air. Sure, central government could increase funding to local government tomorrow and we'd see council tax cut to a tenner a year - but where does that money come from?

Ultimately it comes down not to individual figures on salary versus taxation - ultimately the only thing that really matters is disposable income. I could get a hundred percent pay rise tomorrow and have taxes cut in half - but if a loaf of bread then costs five times as much I'm in a worse boat. Now I'm definitely not saying it's all rosy by any stretch, I don't have the figures to hand and my hunch is that disposable income has seen some significant straining in the last couple of years but I am fairly certain that it's not been hit anything like as hard as figures would suggest if you only look at figures for one tax without taking into account all factors.

And to the folks who always crawl out the woodwork to say "I don't have kids, why should I pay for the neighbours kids education? Or subside their increased rubbish generation?" - stop being so (a) short sighted and (b) so bloody selfish. Who do you think subsidised your education when you were growing up, and who do you think will subsidise your pension and your medical care when you're old and senile, hell, as bikers we (unfortunately) probably make more use of (expensive) NHS emergency medical care than Mondeo Man - why should he subsidise your whims? No man is an island - society is people working together for common good, there are winners and losers in that but ultimately it works a hell of a lot better than everybody being isolationist and sat buried away in their own little individual ivory towers.

Re: Council tax whinge
 

But Ive worked bloody hard and trampled on dozens of lesser mortals to get ahead and earn loadsa money like I do today.Why should I have to pay all that tax to subsidise the losers I stabbed in the back on my way up????:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Re: Council tax whinge
 

O that has made be laugh!

Re: Council tax whinge
 

+1. It would be interesting to see some stats breaking down cost to the council in servicing a person vs the amount paid in in tax. I suspect you'd see an exponential, inversely proportional line that drops markedly as the earning goes up. Considering what a large proportion is spent on wholely council-subsidised housing and the sadly common need for social workers, extra policing, etc. I suspect that there's some spectacular stat like the poorest 10% using 90% of the money or something nuts like that. Almost the inverse of the popular "The richest 2% own 50% of the wealth" statistic.

I'm not a bleeding heart by any stretch of the imagination, but I can't help but feel that some of this isn't the less fortunates fault; the poor are usually the victims of crime, usually by merit of where they live. It'd be harsh to say, "you call out the police all the time, so you should pay more", when the reason they call the police out all the time is because society housed them next door to a family of thieves. That said, seeing schemes where council tax-funded subsidised properties are mixed in with privately owned houses (often in areas and properties that are considerably more expensive than my own) makes my blood boil. I'd be even more livid if I'd worked hard all my life to retire somewhere nice and then a family of pikeys were moved in next door for no reason other than to give them something good to take away as an incentive for good behaviour.

What I can't reconcile myself to is how much vastly higher the standard of (wholely state-funded) living enjoyed by even the very poorest people in the UK is than those who are comparatively very successful and hardworking in poorer countries. How about an "exchange program" whereby we take the brightest and best of third world countries, whack them in council-funded housing for 3 years to allow them time to learn English, get their feet on the ground and start earning. After which time they are expected to be completely self supporting and pay a higher rate of tax for 3 years to pay back the money "borrowed" from the state in this time. They are then eligible for continued citizenship on the proviso that their gross cost to the state remains less than their gross gain. For every one we take who achieves this, we deport one of our biggest drains on resources to their country. A sort of "one in, one out" immigration policy? ;)

Re: Council tax whinge
 

I suspect (rather cheekily) that 90% of the money is currently going to City bankers :D

But yep, social security is the biggest spend (although that includes child tax credits which Mondeo Man is entitled to just as much as Vicky Pollard, and pensions).
Second biggest I think is health at the moment and I'd argue that's fairly evenly dispersed - sure the poor suffer from more health problems but then they also die a lot earlier and save a bunch in pension provision, seems a bit harsh to make them pay more too, plus they don't break their legs on skiing holidays).
Next is education and again I'd argue that spending here is typically even, perhaps even slightly weighted in favour of middle class suburban schools.

Nasty vicious slippery slope. Creates a them and us scenario and worse it implies that thieving scum and poor are interchangeable. I don't want to live next to thieving scum versus I don't want to live next to poor people. If you need a council house then we don't want you lot living next to us.

I've seen enough of your posts to realise that this is in no way what you're implying or desire, I'm just forseeing how it would pan out.

To be honest we're doing that already and at horrifc cost to third world countries. **** poor countries in Africa and parts of the Asian sub continent are getting drained of trained medical staff - the third world country scrapes together enough cash to train a handful of the brightest and the best - who then subsequently (and quite understandably) feck off to the Western world in search of better personal prospects. Aid programs to third world countries are essentially a discount training scheme - which directly or indirectly gets spent training up the brightest and the best who then come to the UK - we get trained staff for less money (net) than if we'd trained them locally.

Re: Council tax whinge
 

I did have a chuckle at the idea of "Import a qualified nurse and export a pikey in return".How would that stack up under the "fairtrade" agreements?

Re: Council tax whinge
 

Cobblers.

You cannot deny that council tax has far outstripped inflation. It's a fine socialist dogma to confuse all the issues. I am talking about Council Tax and Council Tax alone. It is a perfectly valid statement to say that it has gone up far more than inflation. It is neither inaccurate nor misleading. But your suggestions are both.

And if it isn't the Government's responsibility - specifically Gordon Brown, as he was in charge of the purse strings - then whose responsibility is it?

Re: Council tax whinge
 

This is true,and brings us full circle because it shows the repeated failure of local taxation for decades.I recall Thatchers nemisis,the poll tax,was specifically brought in to counter exactly the same criticisms of the old Rates which were spiraling out of control.And that after a decade of Tory rule.They rejig it every few years but it doesnt work,no matter which lot are in power.

Re: Council tax whinge
 

This was a calculated a few years ago so will be worse now but about 68p of every £1 you earn will end up in the hands of the government on average