Can countersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

Just curious really. I'm a fan of conscious countersteering and was wondering if, when turning, too much input to the bars can have a bad effect on the bike? I've got an '07 Daytona and the steering is so much sharper than the SV I came from and I just can't seem to lean it more than a certain angle. It feels like it's gonna fall. I know I need to practice practice practice and maybe I'll adjust the trail to make it a bit more stable while I learn.

Any input appreciated bar gumph.
:D

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

you know what, I'ld recommend that you dont adjust anything and carry on with the practice practice practice bit ;)

if you spend too much time thinking about what you are doing rather than where you are going you'll end up on your **** heading for the nearest kirb.

Practice will deliver.

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

He he. I've never been very good at leaning on the road but am ok on the track. Think I need a bit more training or just to go out with some fellow SVers maybe.

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

I think its just a confidence thing, you can read about it all day but its really only when you are out practicing will it make any difference.

The track is a good place to do that sort of thing. I often get asked "How do you get your knee down" and its the same principle.....dont think about it, it will happen when you are ready.

The hardest part is that you are fighting your own survival instincts to keep the bike upright. There's so much to understand about it all really and I thoroughly recommend the 'Twist of the wrist' books from the California Superbike School people. Lots to get your head around but it definately works.

I ended up touching down a side fairing on my FZR400 race bike....that was a little scary the first time but you just get used to it.

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

I've got sports touring tyres right to the edge on the track it's just I don't seem to be able to lean anything a decent amount on the road.

What about the countersteering question?

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

I've never heard of someone over-countersteering, not sure you can really. It is 'possible' but unlikely.

The point with counter-steering on a road bike is to stop the front folding and turn quicker/tighter. The more you counter-steer the more/quicker you can get it on the side. Once you are at your desired angle you should stop pushing the inside bar but gain balance. If you keep pushing the inside bar then what you are asking of the bike is to lean more. If you are leaning more than the bike/tyres can go then you could over-countersteer but chances are you're survival instinct wont let you go that far and there would be other factors involved by then e.g suspension balanced, throttle position.

Have a look at the speedway guys. They're quite good at counter-steering ;)

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

I did a course last year rode straight at the instructor and didn't swerve until he pointed the direction to go in big push on the bars in and out no one had any trouble. Bikes on the day ranged from a 125 to a Gold wing and no one encountered any problems with to big a counter steer; speeds about 35 mph as we approached Martin.

Kenny Roberts (world champion on 500cc two strokes) allways said that the time taken going from upright to leant over was wasted so to do it as quickly as possible.

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

What I really mean Balky is can the initial input upset the front wheel traction rather than if I counter steer too much will it fall over. I think Essex answered it really. What I don't want to do is try using countersteering more and find the front going.

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

Yeah, Balky is right though. You actually always counter steer without realising it, thats how a bike turns. If you keep countersteering then the bike will keep leaning further to the point that you fall off, so you need to know when to stop.

Above all though you must be gentle, you can change direction slowly or more quickly but if you are violent when doing it then it will all end in tears.

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

That's exactly what I meant. Is it easy to end in tears but I suppose you only do it as suggested by Essex in an emergency.

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

This is common sense really, if you do it violently enough you will fall off yes.

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

No, as Balky says, you countesteer to 'turn' the bike, when it's is turned, you stop pushing. The quicker you can countersteer, the faster you will turn in, which has a load of advantages. People get nervous changing position quickly i.e from upright to leaned over . The speed at which you steer doesn't compromise grip as such - you just need to get used to it.

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

Sounds like the new bike wants to fall in quicker than the SV. So guess what? :) When you deliberately counter steer, the bike is going past the lean angle for that particular speed Thus it feels like it's falling. In effect, you are over countersteering because you now get more effect than you used to for the same movement.
No need to adjust anything, just don't do it :) Counterseering should be a sunconscious act. It should be a part of a whole. Not a deliberate act. No need to deliberately over do it.

If you're looking for something new, try steering the bike using the balls of your feet. That's got a great zen like feel. Put more weight on your right foot to countersteer left and vise versa.

Think nuances, not actions. less is more. "Will" it to happen, don't do it.

Cheers, Carl

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

Exactly, if you know how much input you want (i.e how far over you need to go for corner/speed) then its impossible to counter too fast for the bike, maybe for yor reactions though ;-) . The trouble most people have is knowing how much input to give for any given circumstance and that takes experience.

I know what you mean about the 675 though, its tall and feels like you are go over a long way quickly, just do the same corners over and over, don't turn in too early, as Luke said, the later you can turn in (even a few feet) you can gain loads of advantages, not just speed but position, braking and observation.

Your on the Silverstone day, I'm sure Blue will be giving free lessons on the paddock ;-)

Re: Can countersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

Yeah I am. He he. Just realised I've spelt it wrong in the title. Just been out for a bit. What a waste of time. It's nearly frozen out there. No fun at all.

I'll be watching all the more experienced lot with a keen eye.
:)

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

I think it's impossible to unstick the tyres in the actual act of initial countersteering, however violent. The front will only steer if it has grip, and the tyres only load up significantly once the bike is actually turning. So no matter how violently you arrive at maximum lean angle, I think it's only once you arrive there and overload the tyres that you could actually go down. If you imagine swerving violently from side to side down a narrow road, it would be at the extreme edge of an arc that the tyres would let go, not as you were leaning it over to make the turn, even if you were fairly brutal with the handlebars.

It's interesting, I love countersteering discussions.

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

No! Bikes don't just 'fall in' to corners, you have to move the bars! The only way to 'turn' a motorcycle is with the handlebars. No amount of sticking weighting on pegs, hanging off will turn a bike. You may find that doing these this inadvertantly affects your input on the bars, but these actions alone will not turn the bike. Fact! The steeper steering angle on the 675 will mean that it will turn in quicker. Doesn't mean you'll have to push any less (and if you do it will be a negliable amount) just means you'll have to push for less time.

One thing to get straight - everyone countersteers, otherwise you would have a lot of bikers stuck in hedges! The difference is whether you 'actively' do it or 'passively' do. By actively doing it, you are understand the steering process of a motorcycle and by understanding it, you can do it quicker. This is the main advantage of actively countersteering. The ability to turn quickly allows you to turn in later into a corner, which gives advantages with lines and visibility etc.

In answer to the original question: Yes, I guess you can keep on pushing the bars till you either A: Go off the side of the tyres and lowside or B: Tighten you line far too much for the speed you are going that you actually go off the inside of the track!

A is fairly uncommon and B is unheard off!

I really wouldn't worry too much about it. The important thing is to set you lean, for the speed you are doing on a given corner and I'd imagine that 99% of the time, this will not be the bikes/tyres maximum lean angle.

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

Cheers Luke but I'm not that silly to keep countersteering til I fall over! He he. It was just the initial movement I was curious about really. There's only one thing I weight the pegs for and that's to aid stability on cornering (I weight the outside peg). One of the best things I was ever told.

Where's your bike? Just been on the Triumph forum. Some really helpful nice people on there and some real bags of ****.

Another question: Is it deemed acceptable in trackday circles to hang off the bike while counterbalancing (whilst still going straight) just a bit before a corner to prepare for it rather than shifting off whilst entering the corner? Some tracks I don't bother going back into the seat for the next corner, for all the inch and a bit I manage to get my bum off that is!

:)

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

Hey dude, Still waiting for flat money - Still looking at the beginning of March for the new bike.

As for the hanging off thing - yes that's cool :) A lot of guys do that, though on my CSS day, the instructor told me something useful. Coming up to a corner, I would be on the brakes with one knee stuck out and half a cheek off the seat. My instructor told me that while this is ok and a lot of racers do the same, he said you get much better stability under braking if you do this:

-Coming down a start/finish straight tucked in
-Sit up for corner, slide bum half off seat, but keep both your knees gripping the tank under braking
-The when you reach your turn-point, push the outside bar and as the bike starts to drop/turn, only then stick you knee out.

The idea is that you keep gripping the tank until the heavy braking is done - makes everything feel much more stable, but by shifting your bum early, when you turn in, the only part of your position you have to move is you leg to stick your knee out.

Works for me! :)

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

Luke, Turn of phrase "Fall in" perhapse "tip in" would be better. I agree that (over a certain speed) you can't turn a bike without counter steering. However, you don't have to turn the bars to countersteer. You *can* do it with weight transfer. :) A bike is just a hinged set of rotors and has a gyroscopic effect from the two wheels.

If you apply a force (in this case mass) to one side (say right peg) of the bike this hinges the bars and the bike countersteers to the left so it falls (tips) over towards the right. And you *do* have to continue to counter steer when the bike is over to keep it over, however, this is a measured amount baeed on the speed and the angle of lean. If you stop countersteering all together the bike will stand up due to it's gyroscopic effect being realigned. We've all seen riderless bikes on TV contunue down the track after a high side. If you countersteer the other way the bike comes up *quicker*. Going round a right hander on full lean, you will have pressure forwards on the right bar and pressure back on the left bar. When you want to pick the bike up quickly, this is reversed. if the bike is to come up a little slower it is just stopped.

This is how you can still steer your bike when you don't have your hands on the bars. You can make it swerve left and right but you can't hold bike over at 30 degrees with no hands on the bars. You can't keep *applying* load without your hands on the bars.

And it's not the amount of load that's added to the pegs (or side of the tank), its the rate, as you say, at which you apply the load. (equal and opposite effect) If you apply the force slowly, you get a slow effect. If, like pushing someone hard, you add the force quickly you get a quicker effect.You could lean off the bike and this would ahve an effect or you could flick your hips to the side which would have a much quicker effect.

So it's possible to steer a bike by pushing down on the pegs or using your knee on the side of the tank. Granted you can't add the force as fast as physically twisting the bars but for most situations, you never need to. But you will need your handds on the bars to continue the turn. Maybe a chicane would require it but then you'd also be adding foot pressure and side knee pressure too.

I was suggesting that instead of countersteering deliberately, He, try not to and see if he can control the bike in a different way. It leads to much smoother riding.

Cheers, Carl

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

No you can't do it with weight transfer, it's been tested.

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

You see there that it is possible, albeit totally ineffective. The bike does turn a bit. It's simple steering geometry, the same thing behind how letting go of the bars in a corner will make the bike stand up. The only reason why you can't steer effectively just by leaning is that the rider's mass is not sufficient, given it's proximity to the cog, to have any real impact on the bike's stability at speed.
Steering like this, even if you could do it properly, is not countersteering, though. It negates the need for countersteering by moving the weight in another way. At no point will the front wheel point in the opposite direction to the way you are pulling the bike over. How easy would it be to fall off if it did! :)

(post not directed at g2d)

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

I think that's more straffing than turning though. If you bump the wheel out of line by jumping about the bike will change direction but it's not getting the bike to turn - it's like saying the turning circle is 0 if you pick it up and point it the other way :p

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

Getting back to the actual question:
The only way is would be overdone, is if by flicking the bike one way, and then quickly the other, the suspension gets unsettled, and you could potentially lose some stability.

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

So you're riding down the road with no hands on the bars and you can weave the bike very successfully back and forth across the lane. How? By magic? :) You can even turn your bike around bends using weight transfer to counter steer. But your bike has Rake and Trail to try and stop you. :)

Jumping up and down on the footpeg is applying the force very close to the centre line of the bike in a *downward* direction. Moving your body across the bike and stopping this movement using your knee on the tank is in a sideways direction and *will* make the bike move. This will hinge the bike at the forks and it will make the bike move right. The Bike will them compose itself and strighten up due to the rake and trail above and the gyroscopic effect of the wheels (which makes biking possible in the first place).

In the video clip of the rider jumping on the pedal above, he's also holding the top of the screen effectively cancelling out the effect of what he's doing. Let's see him doing it again without holding on to the screen. :) Imagine how effective the same action would be if he had a 1 meter long pedal and jumped on the end of that. Much more leverage.

Newtons laws of motion dictate that for every action there is an equal and opposite action. Jumping up and down on the pedal like that will compress the suspension. Swinging your body to the side and stopping hard against the tank with your knee will have a greater action in a different direction. The gyroscopic effect of the wheels is a very strong force so you need to apply a force great enough to overcome it.

The fact that we can weave a bike down the road without touching the bars shows its possible. However we are using an inefficient force to alter the gyroscopic effect. Turning the bars has a much greater effect which, interestingly, is why they are there! :)

Carl

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

I've had the pillion on my bike steering it before. (terrifying!)

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

Monkey, I wonder whether the reason that you can't lean the Daytona any further without feeling like you'll drop it is because you're not going fast enough at that point to need to do so?

TBH on my gixxer I rarely need to drop the bike down further with a conscious push from the bars, as it turns so easily anyway. The only time I've found the need to do so is for fast changes of direction on track. I should imagine your bike would behave in a similar way, unless the suspension's been adjusted.

Incidently, once you've got your tyres warmed up on a dry track, you'd be amazed at how quickly you can throw a bike down for a turn and not lose traction. You can try it out for yourself at the chicane in March! :D

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

The bars are still moving though. Your weight transfer moves the bars - that is what turns the bike. If you lock the handlebars so that they can't move then you can't turn the bike. At best you can make it veer of course, but that's not going to help you get round corners. The only way to turn a bike is to move the handlebars either by directly acting upon them or indirectly (as in your example).

Remember we are talking about 'turning' a bike, not just making it move left or right.

Makes no difference, where he is holding on to - the point is that the handlebars can't move. Maybe this isn't clear in the video, but on that bike, they are locked straight with a secondary (non turning) set and throttle mounted to the screen

Throwing your weight around will unsettle the bike, possibly even adjust it's course slightly. However, you can't turn a bike from throwing you weight about. If you think you can, then it's only because shifting you weight is having an affect on the bars!

Again, the bars are free to move and that is what turns the bike! In the example video, the bars are locked and the rider is using a secondary set of bars mounted to the screen. They could have mounted them to the tank - It doesn't matter. Point is, that If you take the handle bars out of the equation, you can't turn a bike.

Luke

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

I'm a big fan of steering with no hands on the bars and just seeing how my body weight affects the steering. I can get round a gentle 50 degree bend without using my hands, but I am quite a heavy guy.

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

I've never been a riding God ness. I didin't really get out on the SV enough and am practising on the Daytona when I can. I think it's the hardcore tyres that are impeding me. The profile is mental compared to the sports touring rubber that I was used to. Looking to change them before Silverstone but only if I can get a buyer for mine. I've also been very nervous about quick direction changes especially so on a corner. I've got a bit of a mental block when it comes down to overtaking on corners on the road. Think it's too much time in the van. (I've been having nearly sleepless nights already because of Silverstone!)

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

I saw a wee video of that (no hands) with an indicator on the yokes showing fork angle... Basically, when you move your weight to the inside of the planned turn, the movement "bends" the bike at the steering stem and the wheel turns towards the outside of the turn, ie, it effectively countersteers itself even though you're not touching the bars. If the forks weren't raked, it wouldn't work the same way. Sort of hard to explain, but if you imagine pushing a bike sideways at about the middle, then you can see that the bars will move as a result.

Still, it is possible to turn a bike with locked steering, Marc Gillespie used to do it as part of his stunt show, Kevin Carmichael's done it too. He hung himself right off the bike then pulled it on top of himself, basically just knocked it over, then rode it out and stood it back up. You couldn't use it on the road, I asked him about it once and he said the hard part isn't starting it turning- that's pretty easy once you get aggressive enough- it's stopping it from just falling over. Technically very hard, but it made for a rubbish looking stunt so he's stopped doing it. He said he offered to show Keith Code how to do it but never got an answer :D

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

Very good.

He he.

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

Luke, We're into semantics here mate.

Whether you use weight transfer to hinge the bike (which moves the bars) or use the bars to hinge the bike, the result is, the bike hinges, which makes it tip in one direction or the other.

As explained earlier, you have to keep pressure on the bars to *continue* the turn but you can get the bike to tip in initially using your body, knees etc.

Of course if you lock the steering the bike isn't going to hinge and thus, the bike isn't going to turn. Which sort of validates the above. Why did they need to lock the steering? Because if they hadn't, it would have turned the bike.

QED really.

I feel that's been explained as well as it can be and that there's not a lot more to add.

Cheers,
Carl

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

I think you will find its all voodoo

HTH :)

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

what tyres have you got on the Daytona? Unless you've got something stupidly sticky on (which can take a while to warm up in the winter during road use) then I'd hold off changing them as they should in theory be fine for the road.

TBH it may be the fact that they are newer and therefore less squared off than the ones on your previous bike. I put a new set (Pilot Power 2CTs) on mine recently and it caught me out a couple of times in the first few days as the bike turned so quickly i had to pick it back up a bit mid corner! Fine now though - just a case of getting used to the difference really.

However - if time to adjust to the bike/tyres isn't helping with your cornering, then you could adjust the suspension slightly to stop it dropping in too quickly.

Don't worry about the trackday, you can take things as slowly as you feel comfortable and then build up gradually. It should certainly help with your cornering!

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

It breaks their clever example, though... CSS have always made a huge point about how only countersteering through the bars can turn a bike, but the demonstration's completely flawed because it actively prevents no-hands steering. All it proves is that you need a steering stem to turn a bike effectively, not that you need to use the bars and countersteer. That always annoyed me, Code's so smug about it but his example's so bent. The results are fair- even though there's alternatives that'll turn a bike other than bar steering, they're impractical- but the demonstration's nothing but a stunt.

And like I say, it can still be done, it's just completely unlike how you would ride a bike.

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

I also have a 07 daytona and know exacty what you mean, it feels like you fall in to the corner rather than turn once you reach a certain point. i also think it is due to the tyres and the fast turn in nature of the bike, im kinda getting used to it now but with my rear tyre near its end i am going to try the metz m3, as i have heard they are a more progressive tyre, also the stock tyres arent really suited for genral road rideing.

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

I've got OEM Pirelli Dragon Supercorsas on it. Prifile like the top of an egg. After reading the tyre supplement in bike it suggests there's no way I will be able to tyres like this at their best temp wether on the road or track. I've contacted a fellow Daytona-er (?) who keeps his bike a replica of a racers and asked if he wants to buy my tyres off me. If he does then I'll get Diablos or the new Diablo Rossos but if not I'll just wear them out on the track ;).

Re: Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?
 

Were you recommended them for the Daytona specifically?