IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

http://motorcycleguidelines.org.uk/beta5/home.htm

might be of interest to someone...

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

...

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

to be quite honest not a great deal is surprising they, it's either well know information or waffle, although I did find these two bit's interesting.

the first was unknown to me and the second, although known, surprising to see in an official document.


1.5.3.1 There is also concern over the 23% (n=133) of riders killed in accidents where no other road-user was recorded as being involved. However, this figure is low compared with occupants of cars where 37% (n=613) died in such accidents during 2003 and even higher proportions for other larger vehicles


4.4.7 In the present situation, a typical urban road layout with a bus lane and a single all-purpose lane, during congested periods motorcyclists use the legal manoeuvre of “filtering” or passing to the right of stationary traffic.

Cheers Mark.

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

true, but i wasn't aware of the trials into ASL usage, an i expect others aren't aware of aother aspects. in the end, having the IHIE publishing meterial like this can't be a bad thing, even though they admit themselves that without policy change you are unlikely to affect the actual engineers themselves...

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

Oh I can't say I was aware either , well not until the clamp down recently on motorcycles that is, now they don't just randomly choose something to target, so (as shown) they must have had it highlighted in some way :smt102

Of course I could be wrong here, but pointing out what "normal practises" for motorcyclist the police can target isn't of great benefit.

Cheers Mark.

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

not quite sure what you're aiming at there, the trials were similar to using bus lanes and showed similar benefits to all road users, i wouldn't think the police involvement in targeting bikers who use ASLs would be related to the research? or have i got completely the wrong end of the stick?:confused:

all the stuff on the website may seem obvious to you and i, because it's things we deal with regularly, but some of the concepts like providing showering and changing rooms for people arriving at work, or the reliance of bikes on front wheel grip, for example, are things that your average highways or planning engineer would never have experienced and wouldn't understand

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

rarely if at all do the conclutions translate into anything more than posturing or futile debate, and yet with very few exceptions the short term effect is a purge by the Met on "normal motorcycle practice" that would otherwise be left to officers common sense and judgement.

the argument over long term (intangible) benefits and short term (tangible) deficits is my point.

Cheers Mark.

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

What I find most interesting about all of this is the TfL logo on a website that is putting a positive slant on m/cs using ASLs and bus lanes - neither of which are backed by TfL policy :rolleyes:

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

Funnily enough I thought that, but didn't know if there'd been a change at all.

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

you mean except for things like "manual for streets" - which completely re-wrote the guidance issued to planning officers regarding residential design situations, leaving much more common sense and losing the strict one sized fits all approach previously used?;)

what the met do is their own problem, if bikers are using ASLs and bus lanes they hardly need cooperation from the motorcycling community to see that it's happening and act upon it, just because it's normal, safer or even sensible does not make it legal, and the police are there to enforce the laws, not decide what they are, if you don't like getting pulled don't break the law, it's that simple really, if you want to take a risk then feel free, i do...

as for long term benefits, the amount of provision you have to make for new developments now to encourage walking and cycling is staggering, and with a little effort motorcycling could also be added as a solution to congestion, the government policy clearly states that it should be, but motorcyclists are either too lazy or cynical to act upon it and make the changes happen, it's a shame to see people turn down an offer from such a large and influential organisation as the IHIE:smt102

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

and as Ness has pointed out, sticking a couple of offical logos on the top isn't going to give it any more weight espesially if they aren't supporting it anyway :smt102

Cheers Mark.

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

jesus ****ing christ, i'd have thought the people that bitch the most about the state of the roads might be the least bit interested, i'm sorry for trying to give people a chance to read the views on motorcycling of the largest collection of highways engineers in the UK

next time they might as well say **** the lot of you

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

Their view are pointless unless its a proposal to change the law.

As stated, its also the views of MAG, and probably EVERY biker in London.

Doesn't make a difference in the real world.

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

you're entitled to an opinion, as am I :D

remember the old BT add " it's good to talk" :smt044

Cheers Mark.

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

you don't have to make a change in the law in order to produce well designed schemes that take into account the needs of motorcyclists, the idea and requirement that the needs of motorcycles should be included in all proposals is already there, but because 99.9% of planners and designers have no idea what motorcyclists need it rarely ever gets implemented, so you end up with situations that motorcyclists moan about, and nobody wins.

anyone working in highways design will know that the IHIE are far more involved within the highways industry than the public in general, having well researched guidance from motorcyclists for the people who actually work on the highways, especially in the design side, will make a difference in the real world, if non-motorcycling engineers know about the dangers which only affect motorcycles they can, and will, work around them, but they need the information from us first...

but whatever, it was a nice idea:smt102

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

You would however require a change in the law to

a) Allow motorcyclists to use Bus Lanes.

b) Allow motorcyclists to have access to ASL zones.

c) Create motorcycle "lanes" to access the ASL zones.

Everything in the docs would be welcomed, but they people writing them, being knowlegeable about these things are not the policy makers.

We leave policy making to a bunch of muppets who couldnt find there mna-mna's with both hands tied behind their back and a map

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

Not quite true my friend. IHIE, together with the BMF, MAG & FEMA have been working together to campaign for positive changes. The most recent example being the non slip manhole covers. I quote from the MAG site...

"The next stage will be to address this matter at a European level to gain support and agreement from the other countries. Achieving this should lead to a change in the EN124 standard and a safer European-wide road network for bikers.

David Short, MAG Campaigns Manager said, "The Government is always talking about joined up thinking in support of road safety and the work undertaken by these different organisations just show what can be achieved when everyone works together. It is the simple measures that can make so much difference and save lives. The European and UK Government now need to show some leadership, effect a change in the skid resistance standard and make our roads safer for vulnerable road users.

Welcoming the agreement, Chris Hodder, the BMF's Government Relations Executive said: "I would like to thank Devon County Council's Material's Laboratory and the IHIE for their work on this. As motorcyclists we know we need a level of skid resistance equal to that of the main carriageway, but what we needed was a technical specification and that's what we have now been able to agree on."


So, it's clear that the IHIE can have an influence on policy. As can we, either by joining and supporting MAG or the BMF, or if that's not your cup of tea - simply by taking the time to tell the "muppets" what is important to you and cross reference to the campaigns of these groups. You can find your local Muppet here.

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

But that can't be right as both BMF & MAG are motorcyclist, and to quote our original poster "motorcyclists are either too lazy or cynical" . :smt021


:smt044:smt044:smt044:smt044:smt044:smt044:smt044

Cheers Mark.

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

I don't think that what lone wolf said earlier has any bearing on the validity of what I just posted.

What is sad is that people would rather spend time on forums like this discussing issues rather than trying to influence the people who make the policies or by supporting groups that do.

You know what they say about not being part of the solution...

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

or of course making rash generalizations based on assumptions.

we would want to be doing that now would we

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

yes, you are right, specific changes such as these require a change in the law, that's not what the IHIE is about though, they aren't a political lobby group, they are an institute of professional engineers whose goal is to make the roads a better, safer, as well designed as possible place for every user. things like siting covers away from motorcycle paths and improving information for motorcyclists in corners will do just as much, if not more, for motorcyclists safety than single gestures such as the ones you mention. this is about attitude towards motorcycling in general, and designing roads to accommodate a mode of transport that is alien to most designers...

Xan173, thank god there's someone else here who understands what i'm trying to say, i was starting to think i was talking to the walls. yes, the BMF and MAG are great organisations pushing for better accommodation of motorcycling within the highways system, but unless you get the message through to the people on the ground who design the roads, the junctions, the people who choose the location of road signs, covers, and repair the roads and services you can complain/campaign all you like but nothing will happen on the ground

rictus, my cynical comment was aimed directly at you, not the BMF or MAG - if you really believe the only result to come from liaising with people involved in designing, building and maintaining the the roads you use every day is that they tip off the police to any illegal activities you may currently be doing then although i sympathise with you as a motorcyclist if the police give you a hard time in london, as a highways engineer it makes me want to say ******** to the lot of you, NO designer would willingly put his name on a road scheme that he knew was dangerous to a particular road user, there is no conspiracy against bikes, just ignorance, and sometimes it seems that isn't confined to just one side

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

I totally agree Rictus, and would add sarcasm to that list as well.

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

This no longer makes any sense. Why the delete Wolf?

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

i posted this link to the IHIE guidelines for highways engineers with regards to motorcycling:

motorcycleguidelines.org.uk

i kind of hoped it would provide people with an insight into how companies like the one i work for get their guidance for highways design, and allow the people who use the roads (ie: us) an opportunity to get in touch with them and suggest modifications or improvements to the guidelines, to make the roads safer for motorcyclists in general

as it turned out it ended up as a bit of an argument, and as i was having a ****ty day at work i decided it wasn't worth the hassle, in retrospect perhaps a somewhat rash decision, hence the link above, but if we (as bikers) aren't interested in getting involved with professionals who actually want to help us then it just makes me wonder why we (as highways engineers) bother:smt102

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

I didn't actually find the bit that told us how we could submit our comments.
Can you do a link please lone wolf?

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

The forum's down at the mo'

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

TLW, thanks for the link.

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

Just look up the "Contact Us" section[link], i didn't mean there was specifically a page to submit your comments, as the website is designed primarily for highways engineers to seek guidance and it's still in beta stage, but if you find something that isn't quite right, or needs elaboration, then send them a letter or email and see where you get. i expect the majority of the information they have received has come from the BMF and MAG, so you could also try discussing it with them and asking them to take a comment or suggestion to the IHIE for you:)

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

Arh I see, so those of us that actually do something rather than just talk able it are the cynics, Hmmm interesting take on the subject, ever thought of politics.

Cynical of how much benefit these things are, now that I am, especially if they claim legitemisy for organisation that aren't supporting them , I don't support you view but instead rely on my own 30 years involvement with motorcycling, I tend to concentrate on the practical and tangible, not something in some report that has no teeth to implement anything anyway, my points aren't just valid, but historically correct.

If or course you're trying to tell me this is aimed at teaching other highway design engineers about motorbikes to bring them into line with the goverments stratergy, then why don't they know already? I would have thought it part of their job to be fully aware of the needs of all road users or you're not doing your job right.

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

Arh my appologies I hadn't realised you were icon blind.

Cheers Mark.

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

:smt082:smt081:smt044:smt043:lol:

i'm glad at least some people found it useful then;)

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

glad you're not smily challenged then :thumbsup:

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

Well, I thought it was interesting. Thanks for posting it.

Chapter 4 has the Road Design stuff including Bus Lanes, Advanced Stop lines, siting of road furniture etc. If anyone else fancies a look.


It's quite clearly a rather good attempt by a professional body to keep its members up to date with the latest thinking. Continuing Professional Development. What's the problem?

If they had any obvious dangerous mistakes then fair enough. But they don't that I can see.

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

IMO these sorts of guidelines/publications are very useful in raising awareness and providing guidance for engineers/planners/road safety officers those who are not so bike aware, so I'm glad that this exists for that purpose.

However while guidelines like this are very helpful (esp at a micro level), when it comes to making decisions about policies such as allowing bikes in bus lanes or ASLs, this goes much higher - and beyond where most of us are able to influence.

The people making these decisions are generally very senior and are often politicians. I would be suprised if they were not already aware of safety arguments for things like bikes in bus lanes (thanks to bodies such as MAG/BMF) BUT they are chosing anyway not to make changes to the law to help bikes.

This could be due to conflict with other strategic initiatives, for political reasons, opposition from other lobby groups, costs, etc etc. Also, councils can also be quite nervous about making big policy changes without either lots of strong evidence and/or other councils/govt bodies taking the lead (e.g. TfL, Dept for Transport).

So while interesting, that could be why poeple on the forum are not all jumping up and down about the site. It's useful for industry people, but hard for most others to be able to do much with or to see BIG changes from it. That said though, I have bookmarked it in case I ever get the chance to shove this info under the right peoples' noses...

Re: IHIE Guidelines for Motorcycling
 

that's it's intended purpose though, nothing more, i never meant or intended to imply that it would be the motorcycling messiah so to speak, just that it might interest some people to read, and engage a few to ask for the little things that would improve the roads... we already have MAG and the BMF fighting for things like bus lanes, but it's only through cooperation with the highways people that we'll get things like high friction man-hole covers, and junctions designed to incorporate making bikers more visible along with the other design guidelines we get

better than nowt shirley?;)