Non Starter For The Final Time
 

I’ve had enough of this now, this will be the last my bike doesn’t start on an SV I will post.

After coming off of a days ride I park up and hear a high pitched whine from the bike. It reminded me of the last time the battery went and the noise from the alarm which was a red herring. After a few hours it had stopped. The following day I come to start it and it gives me the draining start and the clicking from the solenoid noises I’m all too familiar with.

Battery charged overnight fresh in the bike and the same thing happens. Now the odd thing this time was when I put an old battery in it overnight to keep the alarm going with a reading of 12.8 on the battery when switched on the dash had no lights and no indicator flash from the alarm arming and disarming. All fuses have been checked and are good. But with the freshly charged battery it showed all lights working.

I’m going to do some more tests with it when I get home and I go through all the usual things but I’m open to suggestions as to why I got no dash lights when I would still have expected to see some. I was thinking the earth near the starter had gone but then I would expect to see no lights with both batteries. It looks like its got a massive power drain somewhere.

But I really am fed up of this now. I put a new reg/ rec and new battery on it about 3 months ago and now this. The bike is getting started and then its going.

The Bike: 99 SV650S, Datatool Veto, left hand seat bolt removed to protect wiring. Reg/ rec is a pattern replacement.

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Have you thought about just removing the alarm and seeing if you problems continue, it might be stuffed.

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

im with grinch on this ditch the alarm if it still keeps giving ya problems give me a shout i may take it off ya

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Mine was a solalarm, it did similar. Had a quick check of a few things and then decided f'it! ripped out the wires from near the alarm switch under the pillion seat. Problem solved bikes never not started since.

Remove alarm, get a oxford alarm lock thing instead if you want the noise.

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Aftermarket alarms and immoblisier are rediculous really, I dont know THAT many people with aftermarket alarms, but of all the ones I do know they have or have had problems.

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

I’ve looked briefly at removing the alarm before. Trouble is I didn’t put it in there so I’m not sure how easy it will be to take out. But the last time this happened the noise was defiantly a symptom rather than the cause of the problem, however I’ll take a look.

The other problem with removing the alarm will be the insurance question as if it were to go walkabout without it I doubt I’d be covered…

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

I suspect if you call them up and tell them they will be fine, with the age of the bike I suspect 'premium' on the alarm is not much in relation to its value.

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Any ideas on what your going to replace it with, if it does go?

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

If you're thinking along the lines of an Earthing problem on your bike, try connecting a single wire, or even a jump lead, directly from the Earth/Negative pole on the battery straight to an unpainted, clean part of the frame, then the engine, as well as leaving the stock cable attatched too.

This by-passes the stock earth wiring. And if there is an issue with a bad earth it should go-away whilst this is connected.

Make sure you do this with THE NEGATIVE SIDE OF THE BATTERY THOUGH NOT THE POSITVE.

This worked on a Ford RS Turbo I once owned, it had a broken Earth wire between the Engine and ECU, everytime you flashed the headlights, the engine would cut!!

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Well only done a quick test as I can't get in the garage and the weather is threatening but I suspect its the reg/ rec again. Battery is at around 13.3 with nothing loading it. Drops down a little when the alarm arms and disarms as I would expect but comes back up fairly quickly.

However when I try to start it the battery drops down to 6amps or so and thus its not enough to get it going.

Tried bridging the solenoid and I get the same response. The connection from the negative terminal to the starter motor shows good continuity. Next step is going to be playing with the reg/ rec with one of my old ones. And if that doesn't work I'll try the alarm, putting this off to last as I have taken a quick look at the maze of wiring before.

As for the question of the replacement, I have an idea. I just need to work out how I pay for it.

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

The earth connection between battery and starter may show "good continuity", BUT, this does not give an accurate indication of a HIGH RESISTANCE.

Lets say that cable is 7mm in diameter, and made up of 50 strands of wire, if 49 of those strands were broken, you'd still have good continuity.

However, try loading that circuit with the current thats needed to turn the engine over and it won't be able to flow enough current to do the job through a single strand of wire.

Thats why I suggested giving it another Earth supply, Then you can start eliminating potential causes and discover the real fault.

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Also, Reg/Rectifier is for charging system, prevents bulbs from blowing etc....

If you have 13V accross the battery, that should be ample to crank the engine.

There are other, simple checks to do.

Connect your Multi-meters' Neg. Lead to bike Frame, Not battery -ve terminal, then dis-connect the +ve connection from starter motor, check voltage to starter motor when starter-button pressed, should be the same as battery voltage. If not work your way back until fault found along +ve supply.

If thats OK, then you have either an earth fault or starter motor fault.

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Bit of an update...

First of all I'm working on getting some jump leads, beg, steal and borrow at work tomorrow.

Speedy can't believe I missed that test as it sounds a good'un, packed up now so will try it tomorrow.

Right checked out the reg/ rec and it shows no sign of wear (I have had one burn up before) swapped it with one that isn't very good but should still work with a full battery, 13.1V. No change still not starting.

Decided to check the starter motor as I did last time. Motor out against frame the engine to earth it, clutch leaver cable tied back to engage the switch so I can use the starter button and it spins freely. The battery voltage seems to drop about 2-3V from doing this, I would expect the battery to take some from doing this.

So what does this tell us? I infer from this that the starter switch, clutch switch, and starter motor are good. The fault is elsewhere as with the starter motor back in it still trys to start but just give the dead battery click as it drops the battery to 6V.

Speedy's suggestions will be done tomorrow. But I'm still open to ideas or comment.

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

So, was the starter motor earthed out against the frame or the engine? Sorry!?

If the frame, try connecting a separate earth to the starter motor where it bolts to the engine or somewhere clean/corrosion/paint free on the engine itself, if it works then you definitely have a engine earth issue.

If earthed against the engine when you tried this, then I would say there's a good chance your starter motor is worn and it just doesn't have enough left in it to crank the engine over.

Let me know how you get on and what you find!

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Not got time for anything as I'm in and out tonight (as it were, so to speak), but I now have jump leads.

Also was speaking to a mate at work who rides a Bandit 12 and he's suggested the starter motor as well. I had it grounded against the engine, one of the clutch cover bolts to be precise so it looks as you may be on to one with the starter motor.

Luckily I happen to have a spare attached to my old SV in the garage so I think that ones going to be given an outing soon...

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

OK, well, you see when they "pack-up" they draw a massive amount of current, hence why you're battery voltage drops etc.....

Cool. Well, still let me know how you get on!?

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Still not fixed.

Swapped the starter motor from my dead SV and it gave the same problem noise's. So I decided to try the earthing on the frame and the engine, both with no difference. But then I noticed the battery was slightly out of its optimum and probably was when I tried the alternative starter.

So back on charge it is and I'll give it another go tomorrow...

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Have you tried the voltage checks yet with S.motor disconnected?

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Not yet will do that tomorrow.

Can I just clarify, the disconnecting the +ve from the starter, that is the main wire that runs to it? Silly question I know but I want to be sure I'm doing it right.

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Yes, the main cable that goes to the S.Motor is the supply (+ve) from the starter relay.

Disconnect this, connect your +ve lead from your multimeter to it, and your negative lead to the engine/frame.

Push the starter button. You should see battery voltage.

(NB check battery voltage first, before any electical checks. Then you know what you should be getting. Any less, and it shows you have an issue!)

If you don't see battery voltage, bridge out the starter relay and check again.

If when bridged you see battery voltage, you can put money on the starter relay being faulty.

(On a curvy under RH side panel, Pointy, under the seat.)

Let me know how you get on.

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Well I tried that but didn't seam to register any voltage. The battery was good though.

So I swapped the starter relay solenoid with my old bikes one and then even swapped the cable from the relay to the motor after trying to use jump leads on it. Still it doesn't start.

A friend jokingly said I seized the engine, I'm starting to believe him... I'm at the point of giving up on it and calling a local mechanic in. Any final suggestions for tomorrow?

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Right. So you tried this with clutch pulled in etc?

Still no voltage down that cable? Then electrical fault.

Is there voltage at the starter relay MAIN terminals?

What happens if you bridge them?

According to my Haynes manual, there is a "starter control really" on the current flow diagram!!??

Basically, if there's no power getting to the starter, then it won't start.

Are you sure the engine Earth is good?

What if you just jump straight from the battery (or from a car or other battery) with jump leads, connect the Neg one to neg on battery then to the Engine directly, Then the Pos one to pos on battery and from that to the starter motor directly.

This, providing the starter motor is OK, should turn the bike over!!

It's not in gear or anything stupid!?

If you want my phone number, PM me, I'll send it back!

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Yep clutch is zip tied back as I'm doing this on my own.

There is some voltage coming through. Its not registering anything without the starter, but with the starter it is showing 4-6 volts.

Yes, I get good voltage on both sides .

Same thing as trying it off the button. It sound as if its trying to turn over but doesn't have the power.

Pass. I thought that was the solenoid?

Thats the thing, it is getting power, it just doesn't look enough.

No, not checked this. Other test seam ok, but if there is a main point for that then its worth checking. Do you know where its is and the best way to check?

Tryed that with a spare battery and nothing happened. So that is odd. As grounding the starter against the frame has spun it. I think I did something wrong there, but don't know what?

Not in gear, kill switch is checked. I would love it to be something stupid.

Thanks for all your help.

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Where/how and under what conditions are you measuring this??

I mean, at the starter motor connection, whilst starter button pushed?

You should have Battery voltage at this cable, disconnected from starter, when starter button pushed.

Also, you should only have battery voltage on starter relay Main terminal on the side that comes straight from the +ve side of the battery and 0v on the second Main termainal when NOT trying to start.

When you push the button, it should have battery voltage on both, with the cable disconnected from the starter obviously, as if connected, the voltage should drop.

If you're not getting battery voltage down to the starter motor with cable disconnected, I'd trace that cable back checking for damage.

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

There's your problem!

:smt005 :smt005 :smt005

You've not met this bike have you :smt037


But Squiz, if you want a hand let me know, a second pair of hands might be useful for doing all these things at once

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

have you had the battery drop tested to test the load on it?

The batteries current might be too low to turn over the starter.

If you got your old bike have you pinched starter motor etc. . .and tried?

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Yes at the starter motor when the button is pushed. With the starter disconnected it wasn't showing anything. That said with it connected it wasn't registering cleanly, but that I mean it was all over the shop nothing, something, then going to a maximum of 6V.

Agreed. I was grounding against the frame, and had full battery voltage showing on the battery side and again when the starter was pressed. Didn't test voltage on the other side when starter not pressed, but if I had that would mean the starter motor is constantly live? Didn't test the voltage here when the wire was disconnected from the motor. But with the wire off the motor the solenoid was clicking but I wasn't seeing volts.

Thats what I would have thought so I tried the cable from my old SV and had the same problem. I even tried using a jump lead but still no luck.

Cheers for all the help, I'm not great with fault finding as I don't have the experience but I'm fairly confident with the spanners so hopefully we'll get this sorted.

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

How do I do a drop test?

The current SV is now using the old SV starter motor, solenoid and wire that connects between the two.

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

It may well be the alarm but I can't see how and where etc.

As for help, sure if you want to come over you're welcome any time.

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Right had another go at it and I think I've cracked it, the problem that is...

Being a little more methodical tested the voltage from the battery to the solenoid 12.8V (its down a little as all the testing has given it a bit of a hit, so its back on charge now). Other side of the solenoid is at 0.0V. With the button pressed its giving 12.6V when not connected to the starter motor.

At the starter motor end of the wire I get 12.6V when grounding against the frame. But when I ground against the engine its all over the shop. 12.6V then 3.8V then 8.9V the 6.5V where it then sort of settles.

So correct me if I'm wrong but that indicates that the engine earth is damaged or faulty. So the question would be where does it ground?

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

have you cleaned up the point it earths to on the starter motor and other earthing points?

You need a strong earth continuity around. Cleaning all earthing points on the bike will help.

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Where are all the earthing points?

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

wiring diagram i would of thought would of shown it. If your engine earthing is terrible then there's a problem wherever it's earth'd to. Isn't there an earth on the starter motor which you can clean up with a file?

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Hi I'm back.

Yes. reading your "methodical" post, Good. Glad you got to the bottom of the voltage supply.

Yes. I agree with you.
An Earth issue.

Try running a new Earth direct to the engine from the battery.

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Stupid question... Using jump leads I connect the engine to the +ve or -ve?

I tried the -ve from the battery direct to the starter before so I assume the +ve to the engine is needed.

With that I assume the +ve is connected to the engine at some point. I looked at the wiring diagram in the Bible but that makes as much sense as a map of the London underground. Do you know where it connects to the engine so I can start working back from there?

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

negative on unpainted part of frame i think, positive at the starter motor (take off the rubber boot to revealve the bolt)

disclaimer: i know nothing.

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

NOooooo!!

Don't put a +ve to the frame!!!! You'll end up causing damage!!

Put a jump lead from -ve to a bare, unpainted part of the engine. Or where the starter is bolted to the engine.

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Its lucky I didn't just try that then. But its unfortunate my knowledge of motorcycle electrics is left so wanting.

Will try tomorrow night.

But I don't understand this. If I have good voltage from the wire off of the starter solenoid, which is the negative side when grounding to the frame but not the engine, I would take from that the negative side of circuit is good. I would then think the other side of the circuit is faulty hence thinking of connecting the positive to the engine as it needs to go back in to complete the circuit.

I'm not sure if I will make sense here but I think back to the simple circuit of a battery and light bulb. To me -ve to the bulb is good, +ve to the bulb is bad, thus change the connection on the +ve side. The problem with this is that I can't see where the +ve touches the engine to complete the circuit on my bike and thus my thinking. Earth further confuses me...

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

OK.
Right, I think you may be a tad confused.

Positive is always trying to find Earth (negative).

We'll stick to Positive and Earth here.

If you have a Positve voltage down the cable to the starter, which is equal to the measured voltage accross the battery, that is showing that HALF of the circuit is Good.

Now you NEED an Earth for the starter motor to have a chance of working.

Usually the Earth side of the battery is connected to the vehicles frame, or Engine which forms part of the circuit of the whole bike/car electrical system.
However, there are usually more than one earth point from the Negative on the battery to the vehicle.

This could be the problem with your bike.

To check the Earth for the starter motor, which is using the Engine and/or frame as it's Earth (negative) supply, simply set your multimeter to Ohms and connect one lead to the Negative terminal of the battery, and the other to a clean, bare, unpainted, rust free part of the engine.

The reading you should have should indicate as close to Zero Ohms as possible.

Any higher than say 0.5 ohms and you have an Earth issue.

Re: Non Starter For The Final Time
 

Not sure if I'm doing the Ohms test right, what scale should I be using?

However running a jumper from the -ve to the engine gave me an interesting result... The starter was turning without giving me dead battery clicks from the relay. But alas it wasn't firing. Will try again tomorrow but I think this is looking good.

I also need to get some better jump leads though as the ones I have look like they fell out of a Christmas cracker. I've also located the main engine earth it is on the right hand side just below the rear exhaust pipe. In a really difficult to reach position, I thank Mr Suzuki for that infinitely intelligent positioning.