Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Well More to the point how do you lean off the bike, which can lead to getting your knee down, which isnt really my aim, but to get faster in corners, i think, and keep the bike a little more upright in corners.

Have i got the philosophy right here

i know theres lots of experience out there so any help would be appreciated

Joanne

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Ask Dave Preston. His knee down is followed by thigh, hip, shoulder and head.

Whilst I have never seen it in real life, I understand it is quite a lesson in how not to do it.








Ps Luv ya big man, your round next

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

You might not belive this but you aren't that far away :)

From this pic...
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._8366312_n.jpg

You just need to swivel your hips and try and put the inside of your right knee on the end of your crash bung. Then lever it out about 6" and it'll be down :)

Top half of your body position is great and as you swivel your hips your body and shoulders will automatically follow.

Put your knee forwards and it'll automatically go down.

One more thing, do this well before the corner. Don't be fidgeting once leant over. :)

C

BTW, where did you get the Elias type numbers? Love 'em!

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Thanks will try this when i am out on the road in the winter, little slower there and no preassure

Race numbers from http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...X:eRTM:GB:1123

i take it when you say swivell your hips, this is round the tank, so the left hand Knee is locked against the tank? as you described all of the right knee

Joanne

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Never achieved it myself, but maybe this is helpful?

http://www.visordown.com/how-to-do-j...-to/15554.html

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

That Adam Molloys old bike???

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Thanks Jo! They'll go great with the colour scheme I'm thinking of ;)

Yes, I was talking about that pic in particular. If you try and put your right knee on the end of your crash bung, that will swivel your hips. To reach the crash bung you'll have to move your butt across the seat and once your knee is on the end of the crash bung your other leg will be in the right position too. Now move your knee out, off the end of the crash bung and it'll touch the ground. (presuming of course you're not sitting on the bike trying this in the garage, as that will lead to you touching a mountain bike and a pile of plantpots and an old plastic chair. :) )

To do it on the other side, simply put the inside of your left knee on the end of the crash bung on the left and it should all work the same way. One side will usually feel more comfortable than the other.

Your feet are good on the end of the pegs. Your upper body is good with loose arms and relaxed stance. You're tilting your shoulders to one side so you're used to body weight transfer and this will be accentuated nicely my swivelling your hips.

Don't think of getting your knee down by sticking it straight out off the bike. This is where most folks go wrong. Move your knee forward and down, and it just so happens that the SV crash bung is the perfect place to put it. :)

C

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Well yes one of his old bikes, the wet version, once i had dryed it off all is great as you can see

I believe Adam has called it a day, he will so miss racing

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

this is the first explanation that actually make sense, have printed it and put it in my race folder, Thanks Berlin

about the race numbers, his website is also brilliant and he has a face book page somehwere

Thanks Again

Joanne

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Tried this in the Summer and the feds called me a f*~#king idiot, well i was going th wrong way round at midnight, they watch me for 15 minutes alledgedly. :cyclops:

i think i just had my knee pointing outwards so needed over 50 degree lean, hence i was the idiot according to mr plod and his mate :smt103

seem's i was, and now i can see why :-({|=

thanks for the post though

Joanne

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Some good advice* Berlin gave me was look down at you knee and see how far off it is mid corner...simple - but it didn't even occur to me.
Didn't get chance to actually do it though as some sod chucked his bike at a tyre wall :D


*apply common sense !

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

I tried for 3 years until august just gone. Sticky tyres & rock hard suspension gave me the confidence & turning into the corner later/harder caused my knee to slide nicely. I'd recommend doing it on track since the corners are all consistent & you can try again & again each lap :)

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

its all a bit new to me at the mo, suppose i should have asked this question at the beggining of the season really, itching to get out and try again and again, wish i could hibernate till February :rolleyes:

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Just reading that back I really need to fix this keyboard! How many typo's ? :)

Dave, that was specific advise at the time and I certainly wouldn't recommend looking down if you are tying this on the road. if you have a loooooong, even radius corner on the track then a quick glance wont hurt. But not on the road.

C

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Have a look-see at this video Joe. Look at body positions and knee positions. Look how far ahead of the corners people set up their position and notice how once its set, they don't change it. Note when people lift thgeir knee and apply power. Its all there in slo-mo :)

C

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Make sure you are getting into your body position early enough in the braking zone so you are not upsetting the bike as you tip it in. If you are a shortarse like me, then you are really stretched around the bike. This pic at the same corner shows how you need to get your arm and knee right against the tank to swivel around to the position Berlin describes. Make sure your toe is on the footrest, A*se well off the seat and down it goes. SSssscccrraaaaape.

http://forums.sv650.org/attachment.p...8&d=1286398272

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

And wave to the camera ;)

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

:smt071

go to ramsey hairpin and you'll have your knee down in 10 mins just dont do what i did and wear textiles

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

If youve got your tyres to the edges then Its all about body position. Just slide accross the seat with your bum, left cheeck off for a left hander and do this before peeling in. As you start turning in & heading for the apex, off the brake, balance the bike with the throttle, look through the corner as far as possible & point your knee downwards/outwards. trying to stear the bike with your head kinda works too. A bit of practice say on a trackday, try and get a mate to follow you and see how close your getting.
Keep as relaxed as possible, dont go down too many gears so She's smooth on the throttle and hey presto, ........knackered sliders!!!:D

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/e.../128racing.jpg

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Some very odd advice in this thread! I see people get their knee down all the time in a whole manner of shapes and styles. The important thing is not to think about getting you knee down, but rather practice good body positioning. If you do that and carry enough lean angle, then you will find your knee touches the tarmac without thinking about it. I posted this guide from another forum a while back and hope you find it useful!

http://forums.sv650.org/showpost.php...5&postcount=32

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

+1

I raced at a decent pace for over a year without putting a knee on the floor. Concentrate on the lap times, not your knee sliders.

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

This lad won the Triumph Triple Challenge by 60 points last year, he is a friend of my sons & as you can see, you dont need a knee on the deck to be quick. As Luke & Flymo say, work on lap times. I'm not fast by any stretch of the imagination & can drag my knee, it's technique, not speed :)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2464/...3546198bb5.jpg

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Awesome shot of the lad on the Trumpet! Thought the question was how do you get your knee down tho?

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Jay is one heck of a racer (his dad's bloody fast as well lol).
The 1st post says that they want to go faster round corners & the aim Isn't to get their knee down.

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Inreresting. How does he save the front or rear without his knee on the deck? ;)

I answered the "just how do you get your knee down" part of "Just how do you get your knee down".

I did it in the simplest terms possible because I find (from being a professional instructor for a decade) that explaining things in the simplest terms possible is the best way. If the pupil wants more depth and understanding they will ask for it. Then you give it. Never overload the pupil. The pupil will, very quickly, let you know their capacity and speed of learning. :)


"Going faster" is an entirely different thread, conversation, agrument, diagreement, debate and shouting match :D

Luke, Some of that article is very good. Some of it is utter twaddle :)

C

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

whereas we went for answering this bit "which can lead to getting your knee down, which isnt really my aim, but to get faster in corners".

On the faster corners I started by not using my knee, then I gained confidence and used my knee alot which gave me more confidence, which then allowed me to carry mucho speed without my knee hanging out. Depends on the corner really, I think it tended to be the slower corners where I used my knee down, didnt bother on the fast ones just tucked in and gave it the berries.

Saving the front, stopping rear slides....yeah right :-), what do you think this is motogp?

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Just being "Controvertial :)

I've saved at least one slide with my knee in every race this year. On the practice days a lot more. Even saved a double wheel slide into turn 1 at Croft this year on the 600. I thought is was something we (racers) all did. I didn't realise I was unusual (well, not in that way anyway :) )

In faster corners you don't want your knee down (or even out) as it just acts as a big air brake.

C

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Yeah, I would say you are definately 'different' C ;-)

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Ah well fair in nuff, I found it all starts with a desperate need to get the knee down, then as you get faster you end up trying to keep the thing off the deck and out of the way! I had a bit of a simular moment couple of weeks ago Berlin, when the front started to push while my knee was down, managed to push it back up with my knee but it was only instinct and panic rather than skill on my part lol!

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Well guys lots of advice and debate for which i genuinly thank you all :cool:

I have spent most of my biking life, to long to declare publicly, on litre sports bike or above, so about this time in 2009 i decided to go racing, i am quick on the road, and fairly quick on the track, i started the season on a 2008 R1 and soon realised in racing terms i was scarely slow, dangerous almost to other racers, even with my novice vest on, so with a great deal of debate and advice from the paddock, i sold the R1 and went for what everyone told me was a great learner class the Mini Twin

The philosophy of riding a Mini Twin as apposed to a sports bike is clearly different, and i must say the bike you see me on in this thread above is only the second time out on it, but i am quicker on that around Mallory Park than i was ever on my R1 or the Hayabusa i have taken round there a few times.

on the R1 i relied on the shear power of the bike, streetstock spec, on the minitwin i need to have a greater skill, and confidence to be competitive, so what questions do i ask.

I suppose my question should be how do you get quick around the track, but that has so many conitations of answers, my first answer i suppose is get to know the bike, what it can and cant do, and basically gel with the bike, part of tha gelling process is to get comfortable on the bike and body position is a step towards that

then comes all the other bits, like braking points, if any, gearing, what gear, truning points, counter steering and so on and on and on

so here's the real question, how do you get quick on a track riding a mini twin?

Joanne


:smt039 P.S. all answers slow and simple please, Ta :smt039

P.P.S Racing is brilliant, but you know that :smt028

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

That is a matter of opinion! A lot of what you suggest will put you into a crossed up riding position which is fair from ideal, but if it works for you then great. Andrew Stroud has one of the most crossed up riding styles I have seen, yet he is 8 times NZ superbike champ, so who am I to judge!

Out of interest, what do you deem to be utter twaddle?

As for 'picking up a bike on your knee', I have to say that I don't really buy what you are saying, but hey ho.

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Luke, I learned a long time ago (from eating a lot of humble pie) not to knock something just because I couldn't do it. Just becasue I can't do it, doesn't mean others are "fibbing".

I'm 20 stone in my leathers, my bike is bound to slide around in the corners if I'm running the same pressures in the tyres and the 9 stone guy in front and we're both doing the same pace.

I've spent over 10 years teaching very fine "nuances of feel" to fly casters and fly fishermen and I'm used to feeling things in minute detail. Maybe that's how I do it? But if I feel a slide coming on, I use my knee (on a regular basis) to hold it. After all, a triangle is the most stable design you can get. I push until the bike starts to slide and then I know I'm riding about as fast as a fat man can :)

I just presumed that those around be were doing the same. I've certainly seen other riders do it, in a "Tussle"

Anyhoot.

How to ride fast in a Minitwin... carry corner speed.

The more you carry through the corner, the more you carry onto the straights. With no extra power to compensate, every mile an hour onto the staight means a higher speed down the straight.

You make up places into the slow corners on the brakes, but you make up time on the fast corners.

C

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Oh, sorry the twaddle bits...

The stuff that is just regurgitated from CSS verbatim without being tweeked for individual riders.

I learnt a long time ago not to copy someone elses style. You personal physiology is entirely different from their's, From joint flexibility to weight distribution in your body, to lankiness to podgyness.

If you got on a bike and rode *exactly* like valentino Rossi and had Valentino Rossi's Skill level, you'd be slower than valentino Rossi. What he does works for him. Your style would be different if you were going the same pace as him.

The one major thing wrong with the CSS training system (and its a superb system) is they don't separate "Substance" and "Style". At least not in any of their info, but I'm yet to actually go on a course so I'm happy to be proved wroing on this. That doesn't change the fact that those regurgitating the stuff don't make the correct differentiation) The "Substance" is the same for anyone. Twist the grip to add power, pull the brake to slow down etc. The "Style" is how you personally perform the "Substance" and does not matter as long as your "Style" doesn't negatively impact the "Substance"

Now I used to think that the higher up a learning curve you got the Closer "Substance" became "Style and "Style became "Substance" A finite end point where everyone would be perfomring the same task perfectly, all perfectly the same. After all, if you evolve to the perfect point, shouldn't it be the same for eveyone? Well no, precisely because of physiology. The perfect end point is different for everyone. If two people make *Exactly* the same hand movement (Substance) then there will be slight variations in what their overall bodies do to make that same hand movement. The 7 Stone Waife like Elias would use entirely different balance to someone like me and yet measured in all possible parameters, the hand movement is the same.

Now times that by how many actions it takes to ride a bike as fast as it can go..

When I was competing for the world casting championships, I went into this in ridiculous detail. I wanted to see what my competitors had to use against me, so I learnt to cast exactly like them. I copied, to the finest detail, their style (Took years). And none of them worked for me as well as my own style did. I could stand on a platform and cast like any of the top 15 casters in the world so if you played it back on Video, you'd not be able to tell the difference.

Juts look at Ben "Elbows" Spies and Tony "**** dragging on the ground" Elias as as example. Entirely different Syles based on their very different physiologies. But the same "Substance"

The moral is, I then spend 6 years stripping away all parts of what I used to teach that could be considered "Style" and was left teaching only pure "substance" and how the pupil decides to do that with their style was absolutely fine.

So when Jo asked how to get her knee down, I told her to put her knee on the end of the crash bung. I mentioned that her body position etc. was fine and when she next goes out on a bike, she'll put her knee on the end of the crash bung and her "Style" will be added to the all important "Substance"

Then, When we next see the photos, I can comment on the result to see if her Style is negatively impacting on the substance or not. Regardless, she'll have her knee down which was the intent of that particular piece of instruction.

When that article says "Do this..." or "Put your foot like this..." what happens, if due to their physiology, that person can't "Do that" or "Put their foot like this". They feel like a failure. Very bad in instructional terms. Dejection is your worst enemy. Not only that, the don't say why I need to put my foot like this and "its OK if you can't because you can always adapt it as long as the overall result is..."

Differentiate between "Substance" and "Style" whenever you are trying to teach anything or pass on advice about how to do anything. Just because it works for "you" in a particular way doesn't mean it works for them. It may have taken you years to perfect it and in that case its very likely that you have adapted whatver it is to your personal physiology and the less likely doing it the way "you" do, will be right for the other person.

Its the "experts paradox"

That's how I see it, please feel free to diagree. :)

C

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Interesting reading Mr Berlin, few things i hadnt considered there.
Shame you dont live closer, id get you to help me :)

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Thanks Berlin. I was actually starting to feel a bit dejected reading that article because it looked like there were a lot of things I wasn't meant to be doing, which I was, and a lot of things which I am meant to do, which I'm not.

But your post made me remember that what works for one doesn't always work for another - to give another example, one of the things I love about outdoor rock climbing is that you can use the features of the rock to suit your height, strengths and weaknesses etc, whereas if you can't reach a 'hold' when climbing indoors, that's the end of the climb for you. The end result is what matters and everything else is just a means to that end.

So thank you for the reminder and, FWIW, I used to teach (martial arts and the piano) and completely get your 'style' vs 'substance' point!

J

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Good luck with the racing. I am in no way qualified to give useful advice on that as I'm not quick by any useful standard.

I have had my knee down precisely 4 times, in one session at brands hatch on my SV when the rear shock was on the way out and the old, square continental road-attacks were not inspiring a huge amount of confidence. If the tyres and suspension are working I seem not to worry. I don't carry as much lean as many do, but I do get out of corners quite usefully by planning ahead and making sure I get on the throttle as soon as possible and keeping it pinned.

I have lapped people who look way, way faster than me in all the photos. On the down-side I look rubbish on the pictures, on the up-side my style seems not to upset the bike, and saves me cash on photos and sliders.

Just concentrate on putting together neat, clean, fluid, consistent laps. And don't buy any photos until you gook good doing it:rolleyes:

Jambo

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Looking at you're avatar you have plenty enough angle to get your knee down. :-)

My very first time was an accident during an endurance race through some fairly spectacular lean angles, after that though I didn't manage again until I actively tried.

It amazed me that (intentional) first time just *how* far I needed to stick my knee out, now its natural and I both know where I'll get it down and have an idea of lean from then how much it folds back in again (up until the pegs touch/fold[1]).

I now know that I was leaning plenty enough to get my knee down, I just wasn't.

Druid

[1] Depending on bike, eg coppice flat out on the NC35 is footpeg folded right up, knee on the ground and fairing!

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

Never really tried...don't want the friction to make me even slower! ;)

I figured it would just come/start to feel like it wanted to go down as I speed up over the years.

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

And yet it still doesn't!

I'd love to have someone following me, radio-linked, telling me what I'm doing / not doing as I'm doing / not doing it... It's all very well analysing before and after but I just don't think I'm going to get it until someone talks me through it whilst I'm in the moment :(

J

Re: Just How Do You get your knee down
 

I find it's a damn sight easier if I shove my bum to the very back of the seat, everything seems to flow better when I corner like that and kneedown is more natural as well.