Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

Sorry if this has been posted before but I seen this on fb before Xmas and it shocked me tbh, living in council areas as a kid I've seen some stuff but the pure unprovoked attack in this video is worrying if that's what some kids think is acceptable on complete strangers for no reason.

Gang related knife crime goes with the territory for those involved so almost accepted, but on innocent people, it shocked me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu2Wu...e_gdata_player

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

TBH I don't think that they worry about any consequences of their actions these days

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

Shocking...

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest,seen my fair share of knives, guns and bats I've been extremely lucky thus far in my view- and paranoia helps
Phil you're too old to be targeted in the same way, don't worry about it mate!

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

I think its best not to worry about this sort of thing. Its comparatively rare and you'd be unlucky to be caught alone by drunk ex cons with knives, especially if you're careful with where you go alone at night. Its easy to watch videos of this sort of thing and feel like its everywhere and you're at a significant risk of being a victim, but you're not.

If you want to learn a lesson from it though, don't be in quiet places at night near places where people drink. I think most of these kind of attacks and murders are alcohol related and occur on lone individuals or very small groups in dark or secluded areas.

One other observation is 15 years is a joke. I dont want that guy back out on the streets ever. Why would I want him in society again? Life is all he deserves.

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

There are some cases which make you think hanging drawing and quartering might have it's uses.

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

The shocking thing is that all 3 of the attackers did not get put away for the rest of their lives with no chance of release. What is wrong with the people running our "justice" system? Why should our society ever be exposed to these pieces of trash ever again?

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

quite!! he should be left to rot!!

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

For the record, I'm not worried about knife crime on me, I'm worried that lads their age think its ok or don't see it might result in death to each other.

If I ever getting knifed to death, I know my dodgy mates will make sure they pay :)

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wy04c-6DEgE

... And 'human rights' , which has a meaning that is constantly evolving

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

Thats the crux of it. I think judges should look at what harm people do and what good they've done so far. If their whole life has been crimes, causing trouble and benefit fraud, just ****ing mince them up into dog food, or at least put them away forever. Why would we ever want them back out?

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

I was only joking.

Honestly, they don't care . They think they won't get caught, they think the consequences aren't serious (they've already pushed it however many times), more often that not prison can be an opportunity more than a punishment.
It depends on the background of each, often they won't feel included in society anyway so are totally feckless others feel they have something to prove or are just a bit nuts

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

They'll only care once they're inside and then it'll dawn on them that its going to be a different kind of existence.

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

I think the answer to the thread title is no they don't, but it's not just the consequences to them they don't appreciate (or maybe care about) but also the consequences to the target/victim.

We have a certain section of our society that just don't seem to understand reality, I don't know if it's because they have been bought up watching violent TV and films, or because they enjoy playing GTA and such like, or because they get treated so softly by the judicial system early on, or if they just simply don't have any ambition or expectation for their life. I'm no expert on the causes, but I have spent a career dealing with the consequences and I do understand why he only got 15 years. That individual is a product of our society, a society that wants everything and is prepared to pay for nothing. He didn't understand the consequences of his actions, that's not an excuse for going light on him, but it should be reflected on how we deal with it.

If you want an analogy how about the other thread where we have been discussing excess speed and the dodgy police stop. If a rider makes a mistake and rides to fast for the conditions, and as a result he has a crash and kills somebody do we expect him to be treated the same as if he had deliberately aimed him motorcycle at someone and run them over?

Mens Rea, or "guilty mind" is a crucial part of British law. If we accept that the youth involved in this stabbing didn't fully appreciate the consequences of his actions then it is right that is taken into consideration.

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

Interesting angle.

Every case is different, but in this particular case I could see an argument for capital punishment, especially for the guy doing the stabbing, as others have said, he will never be a good contributor to society, be better world without him, his actions could be the catalyst to see him leave it.

I've always said that violence without consequence is a modern issue caused by violent video games and films etc, but perhaps that is a wider issue.
I play and watch these things myself but don't behave like this, but I certainly believe they contribute to some violent crimes.

I don't claim to know all the answers, it's a complex subject, we can't go around hanging everyone, intent has to be considered or we could end up as you say with formerly innocent people running someone down by accident then suddenly becoming public enemy number one.

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

I think you've got the nail on the head there. My own experience of such muppets is that they've just got something missing.

Never been an ounce of good in them, never will be, just whimsy; whether that be kicking a dog, throwing a brick or stabbing someone and a vague urge to "be top dog". I presume some of these animals end up somewhat successful in crime.

Need treating the same way as other dangerous animals and putting down.

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

15 years does seem lenient. The guideline sentence for a non-premeditated murder involving a weapon brought to the scene is 25 years, though RH might be able to correct me on this as I hazily remember there being a 15 starting tariff if the weapon is a knife not a gun, but I can't seem to be able to find my original source on that. I also assume that his defense included "Lack of premeditation" as a mitigating factor, but I am still surprised that they got so little.

15 years is the minimum he has to serve before he can be considered to have a parole hearing, and doesn't mean that he might not still end up dying of old age in prison.

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

Is not going out with a knife premeditation?

Even if the victim is selected at random...

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

I don't think it is in and of itself, taking a knife with you on a night out specifically to stab someone random I think would be premeditation, but nigh on impossible to prove. But taking a knife with you is not. I'd guess that his defense centered around the fact that it was his mate who struck first and therefore he did not go out with the intention of stabbing someone. But this is a guess.

Another mitigating factor in sentencing for murder is if you intended serious harm rather then murder. Would tie up with Mens Rea (though this is mentioned separately) and that these scum just cannot or do not connect actions and consequences.

I'll point out here I am not a lawyer or a judge, just a little I have picked up from the internet and friends who are lawyers. The CPS has published all the sentencing guidelines, if you can decipher legalese. As SP1 says it is a very complex issue.

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

I agree with Red Herring too. There are A LOT of thick people out there, and it takes a degree of intelligence to actively think "if I do this, these are the results to him and me". This guy has probably never done that in any great depth or understanding and may even be completely incapable of it.

Having said that, I agree with YC. Just because he's incapable of it and doesn't understand the consequences doesn't mean he deserves leniency in my book. We put down dogs who bite people, and they don't understand what they're doing. Why do we put them down? Because they're a risk to people. This guy, whether he understands what he did or not, has an extremely high chance of coming out of prison and hurting someone else.

So get rid of him! Who cares if he's a product of the system and it isn't all his fault. The damage is now done and it's sad for him but he's only a hindrance to the rest of us. Unless he can be truly rehabilitated so he can contribute and not cause harm, fire him out of a canon into the sun.

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

The fact that he killed the totally innocent person without pre-meditation makes it even worse in my opinion, it means he's a completely unpredictable danger to anyone and everyone. It was complete luck the other guy didn't die. Next time it could be me, you, or the judge's daughter. At least if there is pre-meditation, for whatever reason however unjustifiable, then the danger is likely to be a known issue in some way. There is a difference between accidentally killing someone and doing it deliberately on the spur of the moment.

There is also the consideration of "joint enterprise". This item strangely cites as an example a scenario which could be a direct description of the filmed incident. As for the "intent to kill" aspect, well in my book anyone sticking a knife or other sharp object into someone else once or four times isn't doing it for any reason other than to kill. If they don't understand that then they are stupid as well as evil. All 3 deserve to be put away for ever, no-one is going to convince me that they were all saintly choirboys who did this one act out of character.

On the issue of "intent" to commit an offence, that's something which I've always thought to be completely ignored in cases (trivial in comparison I know) such as "inadvertent" speeding, i.e. didn't notice or register a change in speed limit (and goodness knows the current trend is for limits to change numerous times in a short stretch). You still get done for it regardless, even if it was a genuine "mistake".

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

The States know where it's at. Capital punishment aside, they're very good at that whole 'life without the possibility of parole' business. We need more of that here.

What is even more ridiculous are the countries that don't allow multiple life sentences regardless of murders committed. Joke!

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

Embee, Yes it does seem odd that a random assault with a deadly weapon on a stranger gets less. I think the wording is more intended for the situations where something unexpected happens. For example (making this up, not an actual case or based on any kind of case law) if a crim were to pistol whip someone during a robbery intending to knock them out, but didn't know that the other person had a cracked skull and it killed them. They would still be done for murder (or possibly manslaughter) but there would be mitigating circumstances in their sentencing. This can be used, alongside Mens Rea (perhaps) saying that the attackers in this case were not capable of making the connection. I am entirely speculating here.

I have absolutely no sympathy for these scum, I doubt its even slightly out of character and I am not trying to defend them in the slightest. More that recently I have been looking at how the law works, yes mostly because my Girlfriend is a lawyer (not a criminal barrister though) but also partly because its a bit of a black box to me, also interested to see other peoples views.

One conclusion I have come to is that they are trying to limit any spread and collateral crimes. If the other man had died the starting point for sentencing would have been a whole life sentence (CPS Sentencing Manual).

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

The guy was just out of prison, that no doubt gave him all sorts of 'rep' in his ****hole of existence. He's come out ignorant to the punishment and feels like a minor Celeb... Why would he fear going back in?

I honestly believe that in examples like this where the Evidence is inescapable and the defendant has priors for victim type crimes then put them to permanent sleep.
Like simon said we do it for dogs without a second thought, **** we even put down bad breeds BEFORE they hurt anyone.

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

Right?
Might be the law but that does not make it right.

Comparing stabbing someone to death with innocents killed in a crash is further injustice to the victims and their families.
What consideration was given to the victims??

Not like he stabbed them once or twice and ran off. Repeated multible stabbings. Coming back to inflict further damage, intent on killing.

The second round attack bit would get him the life sentence in the US.





Death penalty debate in the news here this week.

The family of a Ohio man executed earlier this week are suing the govenment because it took 15 mins for him to die and he may have suffered.

The barsteward raped and then stabbed to death a pregnant women, making sure he stabbed the baby to death as well.

I hope each second of that 15 mins. was excruciating.
If anything Lethal injection is too good for the likes of him.

I like the hanged, drawn and quartered idea for the whole lot of them.
Display their head on a pole as well.
Now that's real crime deterrant.

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

Please don't misunderstand my post. I was offering a view as to why the sentence may have seemed less than might have been expected, not trying to justify what he did. Personally I have no problem with taking him round the back of the nick and putting him down permanently, unfortunately (or maybe fortunately...) our judicial system considers more than just our feelings of what should and shouldn't be justice.

Some "innocent" killed by somebody being an idiot in a vehicle is just as dead as somebody killed by someone with a knife, and their family's loss just as great. Sometimes when we drive our cars or ride our bikes we don't fully understand the consequences of what might happen, and all I was trying to suggest was that maybe this idiot didn't fully appreciate that his target might die from what he did to him.

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

Which is what i was asking in a roundabout way in my op.

I think in this particular case, the guy knew exactly what he was doing.

Re: Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?
 

It is perhaps a case for the three strikes rule they have in california (i think it is.)