Intermittent Starter Problem - 650 Pointy
 

Hi,

I've been having a few issues recently where the starter doesn't work until I switch off and back on a few times, either the ignition or the stop switch. It varies - Monday morning it needed several tries, Monday on the way home just two, then at the petrol station it took 1/2 a dozen attempts. This morning it just needed one.

There's no error indication and the bike makes it's normal noises when the FI initialises. It's just that pressing the starter button has no effect other then to switch headlights off.

Anyone experienced anything similar?

I'm hoping to be able to check along the circuit in the next few days, but if there's anything that's easy to check it would be good to start there.

Re: Intermittent Starter Problem - 650 Pointy
 

I'd put money on it being the clutch switch, mine started to **** about and button pushing and wiggling things/swearing followed.
I bypassed the switch after advice from here (Gary I think) and all was good again. If you cut the wires just before it goes into the switch gear and crimp them there is just enough room inside the unit to pop them in it.

Re: Intermittent Starter Problem - 650 Pointy
 

Thanks, that's interesting. I didn't really think the clutch switch likely, as the only way I get the bike to start when it's in the mood is by switching off and back on. Not by repeatedly pulling the clutch, although I may well have been releasing it without thinking. Next time I'll try keeping the clutch pulled in and see if it starts after a few power off/on, and also some time try leaving it switched on and work the clutch a few time.

The clutch switch affects the ECU in normal running, as well as the starter, however it's possible I think to mod the wiring so the ECU thinks the clutch is permanently released, without it interrupting the starter circuit.


My other suspect at the moment is the side stand/flasher relay, more because it's easily accessible and I have a spare.

Re: Intermittent Starter Problem - 650 Pointy
 

There are a couple of threads on forum where people have bypassed clutch switch because of faulty switch and had problems with engine cutting out when slowing down, they had to get another switch fitted and back in circuit to cure the cutting out, clutch switch is connected to ECU and plays a more important purpose than just stopping engine starting if in gear.. will try and find threads and post a link.

Found it - there is a link to thread in this forum and also one to svrider.com ( USA SV sight ) - quote from svrider site

'The clutch switch is used to enrich the fuel mixture a little when the engine is decelerating (which is normally a high vacuum condition with the engine
speed high and the throttle closed) with the clutch pulled in. Otherwise, it can stall. If you bypassed the clutch switch, the ECU won't know you pulled the
clutch in and let off the throttle, so the engine rotational speed will fall faster than ideal and can stall'.

http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=229604


https://www.svrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=253762

Re: Intermittent Starter Problem - 650 Pointy
 

Two peneth : Mine made no difference at all the the running of the bike when it was removed.

Caveat - As far as I could tell. It didn't stall, even I would have noticed that.

Re: Intermittent Starter Problem - 650 Pointy
 

Having a curvy, it makes no difference to me, but I do remember a video posted the last time this was discussed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_qnGJihHvM

(As an aside, if it was the clutch switch which was faulty, wouldn't the lights stay on?)

Re: Intermittent Starter Problem - 650 Pointy
 

Great video, just shows that with modern electronics it is not just a case of shorting things out as it can have a knock-on effect.

Re: Intermittent Starter Problem - 650 Pointy
 

The lights are switched off directly by a second normally closed contact on the starter button. So they switch off any time that button is pressed, irrespective of any interlock on the starter circuit. This wasn't shown on the older circuit diagrams so had me confused with my K6 when I had alarm problems, because I thought it showed that "something" was still alive within the starter circuit.

Re: Intermittent Starter Problem - 650 Pointy
 

Well this isn't going according to plan, although not necessarily a disaster. I couldn't get it to fail at all at the weekend, so was not able to do any troubleshooting. Looking back there were a few days in the week when it started first time, but more so towards the end. On Friday it needed two goes in the morning, then started first time on the way home and first time at the petrol station.

Also reading the circuit diagram properly my idea about the sidestand relay is in fact nonsense. Flipping the run switch off/on would affect that relay, and in fact if the relay wasn't close the FI wouldn't be enabled. So it can't be that.

I think the only bits that affect the starter but not the ECU are the starter button, the starter relay, the clutch switch and the starter itself.

So maybe that clutch switch was the culprit all along.

Re: Intermittent Starter Problem - 650 Pointy
 

Clutch switch is cheap and easy to replace so maybe it's worth doing that. You should be able to test the existing one with a multimeter, but the easiest way to do that is with it off the bike. If you removed the old one to do that, you may as well just fit a new one.

Re: Intermittent Starter Problem - 650 Pointy
 

If it does it again, press and hold the starter switch and jiggle (tech term) the clutch lever - ie pull and release and see if it makes any difference.

Re: Intermittent Starter Problem - 650 Pointy
 

Thanks. I think replacing the clutch switch might make sense as a precaution.

I might also look at bypassing the side stand switch, or maybe the whole side stand relay stuff. I don't like the idea of so many components sitting there ready to stop the bike starting or running. I can't see a big safety reason for the side stand cut out, I've ridden plenty of bikes without such a thing.

Re: Intermittent Starter Problem - 650 Pointy
 

Hi there, I'm new on here, been building bikes for 15 years adjust saw this did you ever find your problem? I've just had 2 svs with the exact same issue 1 was the clutch switch as expecyed, the other was a bit weird. The wire where it joins to the starter motor had actually corroded and come loose from the metal loop. It felt tight but was that badly coroded it was only passing power intermittently.

Any way I know this is an old thread and I hope you got sorted.

Re: Intermittent Starter Problem - 650 Pointy
 

I rode off with the sidestand down on my my old 250 once (no cutout switch) and the first left turn was "interesting". Nearly got buckarood off to the right.

Re: Intermittent Starter Problem - 650 Pointy
 

Good point, hard to ride off with a centre stand down, but side-stand is another matter - and can be very nasty.

And by-passing clutch switch on modern bikes can cause problems with cutting out when coming up to junctions,
the clutch switch not just a safety interlock but also tells ECU extra information, this is worth a read..

https://www.svrider.com/threads/engi...ame-on.253762/

Re: Intermittent Starter Problem - 650 Pointy
 

Hi,
I thought I'd updated the thread, sorry. I tested exactly as suggested, next time it didn't fire straightaway I kept the starter button down and clutch held in, and jiggled the clutch lever. First jiggle the starter gave a little cough, next one it fired back up.

So it was the clutch switch which I think was the very first suggestion. I fixed it by dismantling, cleaning and lubricating the switch. It's very simple and I can't see what can go wrong other than sticking. Or breaking it when taking it apart.

I've not done anything yet about bypassing the interlocks, but my current thoughts are ...
Side stand switch - I think the easiest way would be to solder jumpers inside the relay. Easy to revert by replacing the relay, and as well as the side stand switch I can cut out some diodes which could also be possible failure points.

Clutch switch - I can't see how to make this easily reversible but what's needed is to cut the wire that comes from the starter solenoid, and permanently ground it. The switch (when working) will be sensed by the ECU exactly as standard. If it fails then ECU operation maybe slightly degraded, but the bike's not immobilised.

Re: Intermittent Starter Problem - 650 Pointy
 

do not bypass the safety switches. the pointy especially the twin sparks need the circuit to be in place of it starts playing funny beggars when coming to a stop at lights etc.etc.


in reality the switches cost peanuts. just get new ones. BTW the side stand one is pretty bullet proof but the clutch ones go all the time.

Re: Intermittent Starter Problem - 650 Pointy
 

I don't have the marked up sketch in front of me at the moment, but the changes I was considering would leave the clutch switch operation unchanged from an ECU point of view. Unless the switch fails, in which case operation would be degraded, but better than stuck immobilised somewhere.

It's not just the switches, these interlocks involve extra wiring and connectors.

Re: Intermittent Starter Problem - 650 Pointy
 

Maybe you can fit an extra manually operated switch to bypass both clutch and sidestand switches if you want to in an emergency - and at the same time fit a ( hidden ) switch to simulate sidestand being down even when it is up, and clutch not pulled in even when it is, make a good immobiliser.