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- - Clutchless upshifting (http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=76332)

Stu	21-08-06 10:54 AM

Clutchless upshifting

Followed a piece of advice I was given in "how many fingers" of how to change up gears without the clutch.*
Really liked it.
Did everyone else already know about this? What else am I missing out on? What other priceless gems of advice do you know?

Oh, and will this damage my bike?

*Put upwards pressure on the gear lever and ease of the throttle** - it just slips into the next gear. **Only works when you're accelerating

Viney

21-08-06 10:56 AM

Works going down the box as well, but not for novices ;)

DoubleD

21-08-06 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viney

Works going down the box as well, but not for novices ;)

I won't be doing that then....
Maybe someone can loan me a bike to try it on :wink:

SV650Racer

21-08-06 11:02 AM

Most racers use clutchless upshifts. The key is to match the revs to the gear your in before you change up. IE riding along fairly briskly if you want to shift up do so at the higher end of the revs otherwise it can be hard to get the gear to engage which can then harm the gears. Just back off the throttle a tad and knock it in then accelerate..

Doing clutchless downshifts isnt recommended as this can harm the gears. Being a v-twin it is best to use the clutch as this will also help if you then realise that you have gone down one gear too many as you can slip the clutch manually!... :shock:

Baph	21-08-06 11:07 AM

Stu, I'm in the same boat. Read the same bit of advice & figured I'd try it.

Seems like it only works above 6k rpm on mine, and 6th didn't like it at first. Having said that, the gearbox is new, I've only done just short of 900miles, so that could account for it.

In response to the "fingers" thread, my answer is now "3 when going down ;) otherwise, what's the clutch do exactly? (2 on the brakes)"

Also, I've started to get the hang of the front brake hill starts :) Wouldn't recommend it on a big hill, but it doesn't take as much movement on the throttle as I thought.

Stu	21-08-06 11:10 AM

What's the big problem with rear brake hill starts?

21QUEST

21-08-06 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SV650Racer

Doing clutchless downshifts isnt recommended as this can harm the gears. Being a v-twin it is best to use the clutch as this will also help if you then realise that you have gone down one gear too many as you can slip the clutch manually!... :shock:

Yep.

I usually use the slipping the clutch method anyways rather than the bleeping method and has save me a couple of times. You can just about feel it as you are letting it out and all you have to is hold station or pull in a wee bit while still retaining drive.

Cheers
Ben

Stu	21-08-06 11:12 AM

[quote="SV650Racer"]Most racers use clutchless upshifts. quote]

That'll be me on the commute to work then! :lol: :lol:

Thanks for the 'professional' view.

Baph	21-08-06 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu

What's the big problem with rear brake hill starts?

The hendon shuffle. But no seriously, I've only done it a few times (front brake), and pretty much accidentally did it this morning when I set off. The road was more of a flat than a hill, but let the brakes off & it still rolls backwards. Was shocked I'd done it without even thinking about it :shock:

(I then may or may not of hit around the 8k rpm mark to wake up my future in-laws neighbours on their quiet little suburb estate :evil: )

Tris	21-08-06 11:55 AM

I wouldn't do it in the lower gears. All feels a bit to mechanically unsympathetic (sp) to me

muffles

21-08-06 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viney

Works going down the box as well, but not for novices ;)

i thought this was seriously advised against, unless you have a slipper clutch? as then you can end up locking the rear wheel, as you are whacking it in at higher revs compared to what it was just at, and you need to rev the engine a lot to compensate or the engine braking will just make the rear break traction - and what happens if the engine simply doesnt rev high enough to compensate?

i dunno, maybe it is suitable for experienced riders to do clutchless downshifts without a slipper clutch, but i've never heard of it!

Baph	21-08-06 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muffles

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viney

Works going down the box as well, but not for novices ;)

I used to do it on my CG125 all the time. Took a bit to learn, but once done, I forgot the thing had a cluch (except stopping).

I'd never dream of doing it on the SV though. Far too worried about your exact comments! I also have a certain respect for tarmac.

Peter Henry

21-08-06 01:46 PM

ok a message to the wise sage's on this thread. You may or may not have noticed that one or two people with more limited biking experience are looking at this thread?

Therefore why not explain the "obvious" advantages of upshifting without use of the clutch.

And why down shifting without the clutch is beneficial or advantageous.

fizzwheel

21-08-06 01:53 PM

I've found that

I get a smoother change by not using the clutch, also the change takes less time to complete.

As for why. I havent got a clue. But its definately smoother without the clutch.

Sid Squid

21-08-06 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Previously

As long as you do it smoothly, (fnaarr!), there's nothing to worry about at all, no more wear/damage will be caused than an ordinary clutched change.
The clutch, as I'm sure you know, doesn't directly act upon the gearbox at all, it interrupts the drive between the crankshaft and the gearbox. As you have undoubtedly noticed if you try and change under power, (or under deceleration), the gearbox has load on it and the lever is impossible to move, you can unload the gearbox by disconnecting the drive from it - pulling the clutch lever - or you can do it by a neutral throttle position, it's identical to the 'box which won't care at all.
When you consider some of the scrappy amatuerish changes I've made with the clutch, I imagine most of your clutchless changes have got to better!
Also the common question of difficult gearchanges is ever present on the SV forum, and many people - myself included - ordinarily answer that the first thing that should be done is clutch adjustment - if the clutch is not cleanly disconnecting the drive to the 'box then there will still be some load on it, and the gearchange will be hard if not impossible.
A neat, non damaging gearchange is made by removing as much of the load from the gearbox parts as is possible- whatever method you use, with practice you can change down clutchlessly too, although I don't recommend making a habit of it - it's much harder than going up, and the only time you need it is when you break a clutch cable a grillion miles from home.

Stu	21-08-06 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Henry

:? :? :?

Baph	21-08-06 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Squid

...a grillion miles from home.

Technical term that, grillion!

FACT!

SoulKiss

21-08-06 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baph

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Squid

...a grillion miles from home.

Technical term that, grillion!

FACT!

From The Soulkiss Book of useless facts

Grillion (adj) - A distance that is *just* too far to push your bike, and equally distant from a phone to call the breakdown people.

David

mart	22-08-06 04:54 PM

need to be very apt at finding netural though would you not. would be more handy to know how to clutchless down shift if you only had one arm

seedy100

22-08-06 09:18 PM

I use clutchless shifts in the car whenever Iam pootling along in traffic.
(Poor mans automatic)

Slowly getting the hang of clutchless up shifts on the SV.
Somehow it seems much harder to match the engine and box speeds, I end up with a little upward pressure on the lever and gradually let the road speed drop until it clicks in.

While I am so clumsy at it I would be much quicker using the clutch.
More practice required I guess.

Clutchless downshifts - ummm thats a challange. -- that can wait.

Tris	23-08-06 06:17 AM

I was taught

Up pressure on the lever while still on the throttle

Then a deliberate roll off on the throttle (just as you would if using the clutch)

Gears shift

Roll throttle back on

Shazam next gear selected :D

Baph	23-08-06 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tris

Exactly on the money! :)

Jase22

23-08-06 10:33 AM

I don't go for the pre-loading the gear lever lark when you're looking to change gear, it places quite an amount of wear on the selector and those little things are not the easiest to change.

For clutchless up changing, it's best just to come off the throttle and as you come off the throttle simultanesously give the lever a good prod into the next gear then back on the throttle. This does need a solid shove into gear though, otherwise that nasty grinding of gears may result.

As may have already been said, you need to be motoring a bit to use the clutchless shifting technique, attempting this while tottling will result in an extremely jerky and poor change.

DanAbnormal

23-08-06 01:27 PM

I never really managed this on the SV, when it did work it was clunky and unpleasant (maybe down to it being brand new). Got it to work on the 2 year old Hornet nice and smooth but to be honest I find it much easier and quicker using the tried and tested cluth method. I can change just as quick with the clutch. I did find it handy for when carrying a pillion though and laughed as he got off and was asking if I had an auto! :lol:

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