R6 shock made to fit a curvy?
 

Ok so I have a as-new shock off a 99-02 R6 ... its a far better shock than the stock SV one and has a 9.3 spring, so a stiffer spring (my ZX636 is a 9.7 spring, the SV is 8.summin).

Anyhoo was wondering if I could use it in my curvy ... only problem being that the R6 shock has eyelets both ends, the SV eyelet and fork ... the bottom eyelet on the R6 shock fits just right inside the SV shock ... thought occurs that I could hack the bottom off the SV shock and bolt it to the bottom of the R6 shock ... put a couple of light welds round it and hey-presto ... or even make up some 'forks' and do the same (so I wouldn't hack up the SV shock) ...

So is there enough room on down there to do this??? i.e. I will be taking up some of the fork area with the eyelet/bolt.

Anyone done this sort of thing before?? :?

If you look at the photo and all them things I could 'click' it is tempting 8)

http://upload5.postimage.org/204746/shocks.jpg

Just a thought, but have you thought about the fact that these bikes that we all have, of whatever make or style, are designed to work with the original equipment that they come out of the factory with. They are, believe it or not, made to quite exacting tolerances and as such seldom require "adjustments" such as new forks or a different swinger or a different rear shocker. I have from time to time added mods to my bike(s) but have never tried to out-think the guy that designed the bike. Some people think they know better than the designers. Fools, every one of them. If an SV needed the same shock as an R6 then it would have one. Fiddle about with the cans and the cosmetics if you like and, yes, I have thanks, but FFS leave the handling characteristics alone. You bought an SV. Not an R6. Live with it, or buy an R6.

Sorry if I'm coming across as negative but I've lost count of the amount of people (bikers) that I've had to scrape off the roads 'cos of "adjustments" they've done that weren't necessary. There's also the implication to your insurance company. If you fit something that is non-standard then you are duty bound to tell your insurer. If you don't tell them and have accident - whether its your fault or not - your insurance will be void. Thats all well and good if you don't injure someone, but just imagine, if you will, that you are riding along with your nice "as new" R6 shock and you go to take a corner and throw the bike into it. You're not quite used to the new handling characteristics of the bike since you made your "improvements" and lo and behold you highside it and get thrown off. Your bike, meanwhile, buggers off down the road and wipes out a group of kids waiting for a bus.
Two of these kids are killed by your bike, and the rest have a substantial stay in hospital (contracting God only knows what bugs!) before being released to go home. Poor little Johnny, on the other hand, has to wait for his wheelchair. He'll never walk again. Never mind. The insurance'll sort him out. Oops. Sorry. You weren't insured 'cos your bike had been modified and the Insurance Company weren't notified. Bugger.

I suppose you're thinking "It'll never happen to me. I'm too careful. I know what I'm doing"
NEWSFLASH: It will. You're not. And you don't.

Btw. I'm NOT having a personal pop at you Blue, this can be applied to everyone that faffs with the set up of their bike. Unless you know specifically what you are doing then leave it alone.

*lights blue touch paper and retires, waiting to get flamed*

You have to be taking the ****! No one can genuinely be that pompous surely..

SORRY! I beg your pardon!! Whats pompous about that? Just saying it as I see it. Its my opinion and if you don't like it, tough.

Perhaps with the benefit of hindsight I went a bit OTT with the scenario but I'll leave it in its original form to "develop some healthy discussion".


Theres nothing in there, apart from the aforementioned scenario, that isn't correct. Touch a raw nerve did I? :wink: :D

A thought from someone who is having new fork springs fitted tomorrow....

What if the designers were working to a budget? What would they have done without the cost constraints? Would they not have perhaps considered better quality components? Not just in the case of the SV, but for any bike?

Using my car as an example too.... I changed the alloys from 14 to 15 inch ones. A change from the designers ideas perhaps? But then again, as new it was offered with up to 16 as an option. Does that mean the designers where indecisive? Or just that the lower spec models were built to a lower budget and thus had cheaper parts fitted?

A good point well made.

The components that were fitted match the bike and its foibles, whatever they are. I just don't think its a good idea to faff with the set up unless you know what to do or take it to someone that knows.


Just as a matter of interest, I got shot of my SV 'cos I didn't like the rear shock. Changing it (the shock) was mentioned to me but I decided to change the bike instead for the reasons previously given. :wink:

Is that not what Blue_SV650S is doing, asking for advice from someone who may know?! I don't view your comments as pompous however, each to their own. And as to insurance, how many people add cosmetic mods without declaring them?!

Tried to fit GSXR600 K6 shock on curvy - it did not fit. The diameter of the spring was too wide for curvys swing. OEM shock leaves some 5mm clearance and the GSXR shock is wider so that was that.

Talking from experience here. I would not hack the R6 shock about..what could happen if your weld failed?...crazy stuff i reckon!.

Now its not just spring rate you have to take into account with shocks. Its also the valving internally. Bikes have different ratio linkages and this means one shock from one bike wont suit another with a different ratio as the valving is set to accomodate this and the bikes weight and geometry.

I know it comes down to costs but dont go messing with shocks and cutting them up. Seriously dangerous if it does break.

Id seriously spend less on trackdays and buy even the cheap base Ohlins or a Nitron shock. Better value than that additional 3-4 trackdays you have missed. :wink:

Ok, firstly this is for my 'spare' track bike. I have a ZX636 shock on my #1 and it is a notable improvement over the worn and budget SV one. The front forks are transformed with new internals too. The stock SV stuff is just dangerous, especially at speed.

The R6 shock has a spring rate that is appropriate for what I am after, the 'stroke' looks to be about the same. I dunno where this ‘but its off another bike, its not the same’ thing comes from … the damping is set up to match the spring and stroke ... the ratios or weights of bike used to push it and the maths originally done for that bike are irrelevant as that is the spring and stroke the damping is there to compensate for, simple as that!! i.e. If I want to move a shock 10cm in 1 second, it matters none if I do it by applying a large force to a small lever over a small distance, or a smaller force on a larger leaver over a longer distance (but the same time from start of movement to end and the same distance at the shock) ... all the shock knows about is the force applied to it over the duration it is applied ... surely!?!!??!

The shock will be bolted to the fork plates, so not only are the welds not under much stress in the first place, but even if the weld gave, its not like the shock is going far. It'd just twist around the bot points and 'sink' and rub on the linkage!?!? ... At the end of the day the fork is only welded to the bottom of the SV shock to start with ... but you are right it is the chance of failure that puts me off a bit ...

Oh and secondly all them 'what about the children' type horror stories - behave :roll: That carp never works on me. Agreed I wouldn't like to wipe them out, but I dislike kids anyway, other peoples kids are an annoyance ... they ahve no respect these days ... so you are onto a loser there!! :P

I can't justify the expense of the Ohlins one as the ZX636 shock does all I need it to, Ok the ohlins would be better, but the ZX shock inspires enough feel and confidence. I’d rarther get the enjoyment out of more tracktime!! On a trackday I am not after the last few tenths it an Ohlins might give me, without trying to sound bigheaded, I don’t struggle to keep trackday pace as it is anyway. :oops: If I do the odd minitwins then I might benefit, but to be fair after retiring, and having done a few trackdays since, I would have gone a bit ‘soft’ by now anyway … :cry: … so more is to be gained by switching my head back into race-mode than spending money on expensive shocks ..

Anyhoo … to be fair I was in one of them ‘ohhhh I have these bits knocking about … I want a better rear shock for #2 … what if!?!? … ‘ modes … I’ll probably get another 636 shock, as that will give the best £-to-improvement ratio but if someone had done this sort of thing and said ‘yeah mate no-worries’ I’d have given it a bash!!

Put it this way, as somone who makes a living out of shocks and knows alot about them..recommended it isnt and yes valving is important:wink: ..cant say anymore than that!

I bow to your superior knowledge over my theorising, but can you please spend a few moments to educate me why it is different?? (After making a few presumptions over length and stroke being the same obviously).

I am sure the internals will be of a different configuration, no doubt, but presuming the damping, stroke and spring are well matched for original bike, how would this not work on a bike demanding the same stroke (but wanting a stiffer spring due to rider/bike weight).

Its obvious that you can't stick a stiffer spring on a shock and leave the damping the same, but swapping a perfectly matched/better design shock from a different bike as a unit (again presuming length and stroke are ok) and presuming it will physically fit I just can't see the problem?!?!?

At the end of the day my ZX636 shock works a treat ... that is set up round its 9.7kg spring ... although now on a totally different bike ... the damping curve is fine as it is set about that spring and stroke ....

Not causing argument here, I really want to be enlightened!! 8)

yeah, like I said, I am prolly gonna do the ZX shock option as not only is it hassle to do, but if it does fail .... well for the sake of ~£50 for a ZX636 shock, it just ain't worth it is it!! ;)

Ran through this with Steve and he said you would never weld it strong enough to stand all the torsional stresses, he said if you do, go ahead but if it snaps which is likely it wont just drop off the rod..he chuckled a bit then said ok just dont go into what could happen its just a no go idea.

You have to take into account with a shock thats made for a certain bike the linkage rates and swingarm length which produce different leverage effects on the shock which is then valved for to take these factors into account. Also the shock for the R6 is valved for a faster bike which loads spring differently due to the swingarm and tie bar lengths. In fact you would want a lighter spring to account for this.

If it worked well then why dont Ohlins make a generic fitment shock or why dont any minitwin racers on a budget use a GSXR or ZX6 one?.

If you want to change one on the cheap then at least go for one that fits. Or foresake a few days on track for one that will work for your bike.

being a racer i know which option id go for...the one that helps me to make the most from my bike and make alot more than a few tenths. Having ridden a bike with a ZX6 shock i assure you one built for the job is worthy of a year trying to make tenths :wink:

Think I am convinced that trying to convert the end of the R6 shock is a no-go from a risk point of view :D … but I had kinda suspected that from the start. :?

But I am still not convinced about the using a shock from another bike means the damping will be mismatched thing … I see what you are saying about weights, leverages and speeds etc, but I point you back at my thoughts above.

… the damping is set up to match the spring and stroke ... the ratios or weights of bike used to push it and the maths originally done for that bike are irrelevant as that is the spring and stroke the damping is there to compensate for, simple as that!! i.e. If I want to move a shock 10cm in 1 second, it matters none if I do it by applying a large force to a small lever over a small distance, or a smaller force on a larger leaver over a longer distance (but the same time from start of movement to end and the same distance at the shock) ... all the shock knows about is the force applied to it over the duration it is applied ... surely!?!!??!

As long as the shock is of the correct stroke and damping was matched for its spring, and the spring is of appropriate weight for the new bike, I don’t see how the application matters.

If it worked well then why dont Ohlins make a generic fitment shock or why dont any minitwin racers on a budget use a GSXR or ZX6 one?. – er they do don’t they??? :?

being a racer i know which option id go for...the one that helps me to make the most from my bike and make alot more than a few tenths. Having ridden a bike with a ZX6 shock i assure you one built for the job is worthy of a year trying to make tenths – That’s the whole point, I am not trying to find the last few tenths ;) I have raced bikes too (actually raced Steve in powerbikes a few years back (and beet him :D)), and I know how hard it is to get them last few tenths off and that is when modding the bike matters. If I was serious about racing the SV, I’d splash out, but I am not sure I can justify it for just a round or two and the ZX shock is ample for trackdaying. :)

Blue... I've got a WP 2-way shock hanging in the garage for a curvy, that's not going to be used for the forseeable future. It's in a bit of a state so personally I'd want to get it rebuilt before using it- nothing unsafe but the condition implies it's well past a service. I don't want to sell it but maybe we could come to some arrangement where you get the use of it in return for getting it serviced- dependant on the cost of the rebuild some money could go in one direction or another, I suspect in yours really :)

Oh aye, and the old 636's KYB's shock has the problem that even though you're fitting it to a similiar application, the valving was ****ed in the original bike so it's ****ed in an SV :) The newer Showa out of an 05 or 06 is said to be far better, though I've no direct experience of it. I spoke to a couple of 636 owners at a trackday a while back who found the idea of fitting their shocks as an upgrade quite hilarious...

No minitwin racers i know use a shock from another bike, they all use either an Ohlins unit or similar!

There are a few that use a stock unit though..and one to great effect!..crazy sausage that he is..no one passes him as he is always too wobbly and wide to do so! :lol:

:) I know there used to be some guys running with SRAD rears but I'm not remotely in touch with what gets done now. Didn't Wingnut have a 636 shock in the shiny NRP bike?

Not for long, he went the Ohlins route almost straight away...

Blue - oh yes steve rode a one off in powerbikes in 2002 on a blade - god that bike was awful. After blowing its clutch apart and eating its gearbox at that meeting it was soon sold on!. He wasnt very quick on that at all..that model blade was hardly ever seen racing..for a few reasons why we now know!! he then saw sense and got a minitwin! :lol: and then had a relapse again last year but at least he bought a Suzuki this time for the bigger stuff.. :lol:

Ah, but he did for a while- I win :) (no, not really, it's food for your argument, but never let the facts get in the way...) :)

Personalyl unless I weighed 60 kilos I'd rather run a SRAD shock than a stock one for anything. But it's all about returns on investment. You can get a SRD Showa in decent nick for £30, but the cheapest you'll find an Ohlins or Penske for used is knocking on 10 times that- and there's still no guarantee that it'll be right for you without a further rebuild. Or you can buy new for... What's your price? £400 and a bit? The question is, is the Ohlins 13 times better than the Showa? Is the Showa £30 better than the SV shock. And only you know the answer when it's your money :)

People always talk about rebuilding GSXR ones, but the only company that ever made a big business out of that turned out to be total frauds, which tells you something. You can do it, it's just not worth it, since the price of a good rebuild puts you into full aftermarket ranges.

Massive amounts of analysis go into the design of any suspension. Look at the RC-51, as an example. Both HRC and folks like Dan Kyle racing design replacement linkage components to alter the rear linkage to do things like improve traction characteristics - to noticeable improvement. These are not massive sized changes.
Do a search for Tony Foale. He sells a suspension design/anaylsis software product. I purchased this package to analyse the changes that came with putting the RC30 swing arm on my SV. I needed a significantly different spring rate and valving curve to 'make it work'. You'd be shocked (pun intended) to learn how big a difference a little change can make.

I'll offer this: You are at risk of unknown behavior/results when you mix parts from one bike with another - particularly suspension parts.

The linkage rates are different, the shocks (regardless of the budget to which they are built - are designed to 'work' with that linkage ratio, etc. For example, you may end up with a mix that has too steep a rising rate for the shock which causes the suspension to get deeper into the valving than is originally desired and cause you to 'all of a sudden like' have a very stiff rear suspension. Not the sort of thing you want to find out when you're cranked over and hit an unseen bump.

Yes, I know were talking degrees here and folks like Mr. Rossi and Mr. Hayden are well ahead of us in their ability to detect a 'hey, that's not right' setting but the FACT remains:
You risk 'negative impact' to your safety (and others) when you mess with anything that impacts your ability to control your motorcycle. Certainly there are positive impacts as well.
Just because a part can be made to fit doesn't mean it should be made to fit. All I'm saying is that YOU ARE RESPONSIIBLE FOR KNOWING that what you're up to is moving the meter in the desired direction.
*steps off soapbox*

Thats what, umm, I was, erm trying to say in, umm, a roundaboutish kind of way sort of thing :roll:


If you cut thru all the scenarios and things I was essentially right. WOO-HOO :lol: :roll:

Now that's not strictly true is it ;) .... He raced a rather sexy GSXR1000 in 2004 too ... I beat him in several Powerbike races!! 8) ... admittedly he beat me in a few too ;) ... but I beat him more than he beat me ... and I was on a 600, so must have been giving away what 50 horse? to him!!! 8)

Northy - Thankyou for you r generous offer :) ... if it is totally shot then it'll cost what about a ton-ton twenty to get serviced/rebuilt?? At that point I'd rather put the rest in and get a new one (that I get to keep ;)).

Oh and I don't need selling on the fact of how good Ohlins shocks are ... I raced on them for years ;) ... but I also know that the ZX636 shock is good enough for what I want on this bike and a definite improvement over the SV shock. I get good tyre wear and at the pace I am using it at, no scary rear-end moments either. The rear tyre not chunking is good indicator that the suspension is working and set up correctly. 8)

I feel quite insulted that you and tygaboy without even knowing me PRESUME that I wouldn't know if 'summin was up' (i.e that I had a total missmatch) way before it got to the point things were going horribly wrong!! :P ...

If I put it on and it wasn't working how I desired, even after messing with the adjusters then I'd ditch it ... the standard shock is so poor even a non-optimal usage of a better shock gives better results ;)

Yeah, something like that's probably about what I'd expect... But since it'll cost me that do do anyway I was thinking we could split it or something ;)

Yep, but then the RC51 comes from the factory with extremely good suspension. The SV's spec is set by budget not by design. The exact same forks are used in more than one Suzuki model- the Bandit 6 weighs considerably more than the SV, has different suspension geometry, different weight distribution and most would say a different application- so clearly the suspension's not perfect for one or the other.

The fact is, the SV suspension's cheap and nasty. The forks have more in common with door closing mechanisms than with modern suspension, and the rear's basically misspecced for the average british or American rider. I shudder when I hear about 200 pound riders on stock SVs... You can make huge changes to it without incurring any negative results, because you're not shooting for perfection- just improvement. The 636 shock swap's very far from perfect, but for most of us it's further from dreadful than the stock unit :)

At least somone knows where I am coming from with this ;)

If I get into minitwins (i.e. do more than a round or two) then I'd be after a race shock, but to be honest for trackdaying the ZX option is fine ... I mean jez, I am running 2nd hand tyres .... somone else has deemed them too knackerd to use on their bike ... its not like the bike is ever going to get full benefit from a rear shock if I am still using sha66ed tyres!!! :D For trackdaying I just don't need them few tenths/seconds that a race shock and new tyres gives ... so am choosing to keep the money in the kitty .. for ... well more trackdaying!?! :D .... Thanks again for the offer, but I'll pass ... why are you not prepared to sell it if you are not using it?

Jeez Blue, you sound like a cheap date :shock: :? :wink: .

Word on the street is, a guy just came into some money. You tight git :lol: :wink:



Ben

Yes I have the money to buy an Ohlins shock if I wanted (I could buy 10 of them if I wanted ;)) ... but that isn't the point ... BTW I haven't 'come into' any money, it was my money all along .... they were shares I had and I chose to sell them at this time ;)

I am not a rich man (far from it), and therefore I try to allocate what I have in the wisest way so it goes the furthest and I get the most benefit from it ... at the end of the day remember my budget means that I have crash damaged curvys that I got cheap and spent time resurrecting and making the best of myself by sourcing 2nd hand parts ... not the latest K7 fully tricked out by Crescent Suzuki!!! :roll:

If I was rich I wouldn't have to make any decisions, I'd have the best and I'd have it all ;) Oh and rich people don't stay rich for very long if they spend money willy nilly ;)

I try and do the best I can with what I have ... surely that is only logic, whats the point in spending £'000s tricking my SVs out then having no cash to actually use them? Or do anything else extra curricula with my life??? My cost-benefit analysis says that an Ohlins shock isn't worth the investment at this time (I might at a future date if some of the variables change).

I have the cash yes, so I am being tight here??? perhaps??? you might see it like that?? as may others?? ... But the thinking man would see it as logical!! ;)

OMG I wasn't expecting that :oops: :wink:. It's all good man. I like the way you think actually. If you bottled it I'll buy one :wink: .



Ben



ps: I dare you to buy four(not ten) Ohlins shocks and since you only have three SV650s I'll make sure the fourth doesn't go to waste :)

In a way I do 'bottle it' and sell it ... I make my living from the way I think!! :shock: yes, yes, bearing in mind the quality of output, I doubt it is VFM!! :D

As for blagging a shock ... lol, now think about it I am struggling to justify the expense for my own trackbike/s, I'd never be able to justify it for my roadbike (that I only use for commuting), let alone a spare ;) Nice try though :D

"Long term plans", he said with a wink. I think it looks nicer than the Ohlins, and they're in the same ballpark performance-wise... ERS reckon that they're slightly better in terms of durability, slightly worse in terms of adjustability, otherwise I doubt I'll feel a difference. So if I go for one of my various schemes, it'll fit the bike better and I'll fit it, and flog the Ohlins.

{Rummages through countless old photos :D}

Your Honor .... if this isn't Mr Jordan on the grid (Brands 2004 to be precise ;)) on a swanky looking GSXR1000 Powerbike ... well ... er ... lets face it ... er ... the evidence is pretty damming isn't it?!!?:D

http://upload5.postimage.org/263277/SteveJ.jpg

{schoolkid voice} "Told you so .... Told you so!!" :D :D

pwned ;)

That was a good move, but I'd say this was checkmate ;) (look about half way down his name (and bike) is clearly marked {smug mode on} Blue's right Blues Right ... he knows more about Steves race career than Steves GF/Wife?? :D :D)

http://www.bemsee.net/2004/events/re...7/result15.txt

You're taking this a wee bit too far... :) What's next, rummaging through their bins?

hehe, I have all this as I collected photos and results about/of myself over the years! .... So no, I have not been stalking Steve!! :D

Basically I remember dicing with Steve a few times in Powerbikes!!! 8) So naturally he was likely to appear in my scrapbook as 'background' at some point if I looked hard enough!! :)

Mike1234 might appear in my scrapbook as background somewhere too as I have raced against him also ... I'll have a look at some point!! 8)

dont worry if you do manage the supposed trip into minitwins, then come and do the Thunderbikes too...so i can add you in the background to my scrapbook :wink: ..although getting wupped by a girl would be kinda embarrasing. :wink:

i would hasten to add that even steve would admit he was slow then.. :wink:

Gauntlet solidly thrown!! :D

I didn’t mean ‘background’ in a derogatory sense BTW (unlike you :D), just that he wasn’t the focus of the pics/scrapbook but does (by nature of being there) inadvertently appear!! :P

Its hard to tell how ‘soft’ I have got since retiring … I’d be interested in knowing myself!! :?

So I have a frame of reference, what spec is your bike and what are your best times at places like Snett and Brands Indy? … I need to get myself on a practice day with fresh tyres to see what I can do these days at those tracks and on my spec SV.

If I am embarrassingly slow then I won’t bother!! :D If I am not that far off the pace, but need a bit of a ‘pep’ I’ll get the bike sorted …

On my SV which is 79.67bhp currently i do 1.18.2 round Snetterton, Brands Indy 52.6.

After testing at Cartagena went well improving over 5 seconds from last year, this season i am aiming for a 51 of some description at Brands to match Steves best on his minitwin of a 51.7 and a high 1.16 at Snetterton, well they are my goals.

TBH the SV in thunderbike spec still isnt a world apart from a minitwin spec bike.

So the gauntlet is laid... :lol: :lol: ...

With confidence and the wind behind me...and a tin full of baked beens!!! :lol: :lol:

BTW is your name Nick Bailey?.

So basically your bike is too highly modified to comply with minitwins regs right?? Have you got GIXER front forks brakes and stuff too? :? How hard would it be for you to de-mod yours to comply with minitwins regs??? Either way we should be able to do a practice day together!? 8) :)

According to http://www.minitwins.co.uk/records.html the current MRO minitwins Brands lap record is 0:51.52 (0:51.83 BEMSEE), so if you reckon you can get in the 51s then you probably have me beat!!! :D I'd like to think that the mid-high 52s would be within my grasp after a bit of practice and with fresh tyres though?!!!? :-k I did 50s when I was racing, but that was a different bike ... I really need to have a crack at it on the SV first before I place any bets, its bound to be slower, but by how much >2s?!? :-k :D

Here's the full pic, everything should become clear ... see, I am not Steve's stalker, he just happened to be there!! :D

So back where we came in ... :roll: :D ... will you now admit that you dropped one and he did indeed race Powerbikes for a while in 04 on a GIXER thou, not just a one off in 02 like you first said?!!? ;)

http://upload5.postimage.org/273867/Steve_n_Blue.jpg