So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

There have been threads, some quite recent, about clutchless changes.

Most people have been in favour of them, although not me. I believe that although the box may be fine over a period of time, ultimately you can damage it by using this technique. Fine if you sell the bike before the miles have piled up, but for the new owner it could an expensive problem.

What has prompted this thread is Vineys probs with his box. My old Sv had covered around the same mileage and the change was a smooth as ever.

So how many higher mileage bike owners have had problems and how many haven't, and of those, who clutchless shift? Note higher mileage bike owners only please.

Not looking to stir up a hornets nest, just trying to get proper information.

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

Not evidence though one way or the other.

Hard facts please.

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

OK fact, clutchless up or down shifting will notc cause any undue wear on the internal componants if done perfectly, however it will if not not matched to speed /load & revs.

How much wear and how quickly it'll manifest itself, is down to how bad you are at it.

How's that ?

Cheers Mark.

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

You won't get any. Subjective. Do what works for you. If you want to use the clutch, then use the clutch. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. You won't get hard facts unless you run a scientific test.

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

There a few high mileage bikes on here, so if they are post and can tell us the type of change they do and if they have had any problems then at least it is an indicator....... if not conclusive.

Everybody appears to hold clutchless changes as a good thing, saving nanoseconds over using the clutch, and newbies pick up on this, potentially damaging the box (or not).

I totally agree everybody should be able to do a shift clutchless, that is a useful skill.

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

Highest mileage engine I had on the SV was 78k, nothing wrong with the box at all, apart for half a dozon track days, never done a clutchless change on the road, but then I'm quick enough (or was) with it.

I know engines an prefer to have the wear componant of gear change as much as possible on the clutch plates, which are cheaper and easier to change.

(Had several other bikes with over 100k on them with out any gearbox problems though)


Cheers Mark.

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

Well, i ran my bike for a good 20k doing normal changes....

I done a few clutchless changes after reading on here....

Shortly after, my clutch/starter system gound half its teeth off........ Never had any issues with anything like that previously.....

So i'd say, if you fancy "Chancing" your gearbox going bang, do it. If you value the box, use the clutch...... My old mans been riding 35 years odd, he's raced, had a national racing licence (BSB level), and he advises against clutchless changes..... I won't be doing them again..

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

Agreed-if you want to play with clutchless changes buy a C90. That said I do them infrequently, can't explain when, just when it feels right.
Vague I know...:smt017

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

My SV1000 has 11000 miles, and my SV650 had about 13000 miles when I sold it - not exactly high milage I admit :D

I have always clutchless shifted when the revs/mood suit and have had no gearbox issues on either bike.

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

Getting on for 30k, clutchless upshift from 3rd upwards nearly all the time, i'd estimate 75-80% of the time. Lower gears, i prefer clutching it, to keep things smooth. Depends on the conditions of each gearchange as to whether i do or not though.

Downshifts, i always use the clutch, it just feels smoother and less upsetting for the rear tyre.

Still on original clutch, and box is sweet.


If you know what your doing you can do it in the car too. Listen to your engine, it's always communicating when it's being stressed and/or used correctly. Mind you, i drive a tiptronic anyway so what the hell is a clutch........:smt017

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

I'm sure the clutch cable on my mz wasn't connected to anything anyway, as after a few miles it was just as difficult to change gear clutch or not... but I always use the clutch on my sv, no particular reason for or against, except that they must have had a reason to put it in there.

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

When I'm bimbling along, I'll ride the clutch quite hard. When I'm pushing the bike hard, I'll punch up & down the box without touching the clutch at all (downshifts with blipping & no clutch to use engine braking).

It depends on my riding.

On average, I don't touch the clutch going up the box, and I do on the way down. But that's only a slim majority of the time.

The bike is just short of 16k miles, and I haven't heard any grinding or hit any false neutrals yet.

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

I didn't write that just for the fun of it, it's experience from a number of years fooling with them there motorbicycles.

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

use the clutch on the race bike to get off the line and do not touch it for the rest of the race!
up shifts, down shifts and all!

havent had a problem yet....

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

20k miles on the Gixxer, 13k miles on the 'Blade, and about 7k miles on the Falco, 99% of them without the clutch. I also probably ran the SV for about 10k miles doing clutchless changes (up, not down - down is harder to get right).

Never had a problem with any of the gearboxes. I often use the clutch 1st -> 2nd, but generally all the rest are without. I find I ride smoother and time my gear changes better.

But that's just me.

.

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

Hmm, i've never considered what the cause of a false neutral is. Anyone wanna enlighten me? :neutral:

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

To my (limited) knowledge, it's the black art of finding a gap between the gears. Quite an art form on a constant mesh box.

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

Sounds simple but i always thought the clutch was there for a reason :smt102. I think its all part of the fun, fair enough on track bikes but no way would i risk it on my pride an joy. Everyones got their way of doing things though, i appreciate that! :rolleyes:

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

I'm glad this came up......I had a couple of "slipping into neutral" moments when riding a bid harder than normal...(still learning) the other day.....this was going 3rd-4th and 4rt-5th.

I thought there migh be something wrong......

My mate said it might be the position of my levers and the way i'm shifting.........suggested to forget about the clutch while shifting up.

So thanks....Interesting read.

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

I had similar, but opposite.

When I first got the SV, I found that when changing down, it'd only go down one gear. I was trying to "box shift" down two gears, then let the clutch out (if you get what I mean).

Move the gear lever down a little, problem solved. Turns out, I was leaving my foot slightly on the lever, meaning I hadn't completed the change.

Needless to say, now that I've moved the gear lever, I don't try to go down 2 gears at a time...

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

Sadly there have not been enough of the high mileage bike owners to make any conclusion. Of course the owners would have had to have owned their bikes from new or nearly new to vouch for the type of change used, so I guess that narrows it down even more. My previous Sv had done 50,000. 45,000 miles of that 2 up, so I'd have changed gears even more frequently. The box was fine and it was still on it's original clutch, and I drive fairly briskly. I agree with Rictus, I'd much rather change a clutch than start delving into the gearbox internals.

Reading comments here and on another thread I think that if gears are being missed it's either operator error, clutch or linkage adjustment, or a maintenance issue ( old oil or chain tightness) as Suzuki boxes are generally fine.

Thank you for all your input.

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

I got my K6 with 4miles on the clock. I'm currently at almost 16k. I expect that when the SV goes, she'll be the wrong side of 150k! That is, unless my itchy finger gets the better of me, and I decide I can afford insurance on something beefier. The next will almost definately be second hand though.

I know you can't reliably build a statistic over one bike, but I'll keep everyone posted ;)

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

if you want to clutch less shift why not get a power comander and a quick shift kit so it interupts the spark during clutch less shifts making it smooth and not hard on your transmission but as a whole use the clutch. clutch plates for my bike were $108 with gasket. cheaper than a transmission

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

I tend to use clutchless upshifts too in the higher gears, but not all the time, depending on whether I thin it's going to go in smoothly or not.

Have never seen the point of clutchless downshifts - if it's quicker or smoother or better in any way, why don't motogp or wsb riders do it? All the onboard shots show them using the clutch on downchanges.

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

I always find blipping the throttle between each gear shift when going down more than 1 gear with clutch in helps a LOT, its solved the problem of the box not liking it... dont ask me why it works, just does.

As for clutchless changes NEVER down, makes the bike all uncomfortable and hardly saves time so i cant see the point... even WSB/MotoGP clutch it down :cool:.

I do when ragging it do clutchless changes up but ONLY at 7000 revs + and 2nd gear up, too rough at any lower revs or from 1st gear in my experience. (can be done at lower revs and from 1st gear its just rare itll not feel like the gear jumped in and jerk you).

Ive only ever once found a false neutral and that was from 1st to 2nd (wasnt just neutral) it slipped out of 2nd, but i know i didnt do a full click with the shifter (new boots ;)) wouldnt go down into first at all just grinded... oops, so i had to take it back to 2nd and then it change down to 1st from there. That was using the clutch...

My bike has dont about 16500miles and feels as good as ever! K5 bike so its new still :p

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

I've done slightly more miles on a newer bike :(

Clutchless downshifting just feels nicer to me when I'm pushing the bike hard. Some folks don't like it, others haven't tried it for various reasons. Horses for courses.

You can smoothly change up from around 4k RPM, or rather, I can, on my bike. Usually only 2nd gear & above, but now & again 1st-2nd.

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

just to put things right the c90/70 and 50 all have "automatic" clutches. What takes place is that when you select a gear by operating the gear lever a cam is operated disengaging the clutch. trust me i know. atb paul;) P.S. I dont condone clutchless changes.

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

I took two of my ZZR1100s over 100,000 miles (both did well over 60,000 each in my ownership) and the gearchanges on them were as sweet as the day they rolled off the factory line. I'd done clutchless upchanges almost every time from 2nd gear upwards, but wouldn't consider doing a downchange without the clutch due to the near impossibility of matching revs to roadspeed and not losing all momentum while doing so. Also, changing down without tends to wear the backs of the gear dogs (better known as rounding off) which can cause the bike to jump out of gear.

My Honda CB250RS was hammered almost to death and abused horribly in the 60,000 miles I commuted on it, but despite the many thousands of clutchless gearchanges I subjected it to in 4 years, the gearbox was about the only thing that didn't break on it in the 192,000 miles it had definitely done.

All the better race bikes I know of have quickshifters to go up the box, none of them will use the shifter to come down it... and blown gearboxes on Japanese built racebikes are almost unheard of.

Someone once told me that the Ducati dry clutched bikes have a sweeter gearchange if the clutch isn't used going up the box - that's certainly been my experience every time I've ridden a 996 or 749..

In summary, Over the past 32 years of riding high mileages per annum I've discovered it's absolutely fine to clutchless shift up the box, but would never consider going down the box the same way

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

I clutchless upshift 85 - 90% of the time. Not exactly high mileage though I guess, all 9k have been fairly hard though :s

I never cluthless downshift... On my own bike anyway.

Edit:holy grave digging batman... Just noticed when this topic was started.

Re: So does doing clutchless changes muck up your box?
 

Holy zombie thread batman


How you connect changing gear to the starter clutch? Wrong end of engine.