Check fully after an off
 

Well my mate Dave had a narrow escape today.

As I have previously posted he had a slight off a couple of weeks ago that did very little damage to his bike. two small scratches on the fairing, ruptured tank and a slight tear in his seat. no damage to levers, can, lights, mirrors etc.

Well today we go out and pick up his mate in Southport to go pillion with Dave. As John climbs on, Dave applies front brake just to help steady the bike and the lever snaps in his hand.

Obviously there must have been a crack resulting from the off. Thank god he found it whilst stationary and not when he needed it.

So please when you think damage is minor, check and exercise the component. Dave is a new rider only passed his test a couple of weeks ago and is still in newbie mode as far as doing what his DAS instructor told him and not really using the front brake.

Re: Check fully after an off
 

Very alarming tale generally, it's a good reminder to check everything.

But I'm shocked about this advice re the front brake - we've debated using front/rear brake before. Being taught not to use the front brake or to use it only sparingly is downright dangerous IMHO.

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I am very surprised about the front brake snapping like that though. I was of the impression that the levers were made to either survive an impact or snap. Very unlucky to have one fracture but not snap like that. :shock: Close call indeed.

In regards to the non use of the front brake. Can I suggest that maybe your friend has possibly misunderstood what the instructor was telling him:?: Maybe the instructor was trying to tell your friend to be rear biased until he is used to using the front brake :?:

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Baffled by the "advice" too, did my test almost 15 years ago now but remember the advice at the time was generally 70/30 front (experience and habit now has me running at about 95/5 unless wet, trail braking etc).

I remember my step-dad being horrified that I used so much front brake claiming I'd "go over the bars", till I pointed out two massive discs on the front and a little titchy one on the back. Apparently back in his day (when it were all fields round 'ere) the advice was back brake dominance; though to be honest I think he got it wrong even then :)

Re: Check fully after an off
 

That was my first thought as well. Still very lucky...

Regards the lever snapping off, where exactly was the break? Pivot area?


Ben

Re: Check fully after an off
 

I fitted an aftermarket brake lever (after dropping the bike pushing out of a parking space - how stupid can one get!). I noticed that while the Suzuki one has some metal taken away on the underside just before the ball at the end, the aftermarket does not. I noticed that the Suzuki one, just the ball broke off leaving a usable brake lever, and I don't think taht would happen with the aftermarket one. Maybe this is an explanation for the lever snapping like that and also a caution about using cheap replacement parts.

Re: Check fully after an off
 

exact same thing happenned to me Tim after my off.!

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RE: The non-use of the front brake 'advice'

I sold my Triumph Trophy to a colleague when I bought the SV. He was new to riding so I took him out for a couple of rides, just the two of us, and he coped fine (I was riding like I was on my test though!).

We then went out with a group of friends and he ended up going straight on at a 90° bend. Fortunately there was a little bit of a layby but he still hit a fence at about 10mph and dropped it. When questioned about it it turned out he was only using the rear brake as the instructor had instilled such a fear of locking the front wheel in him! I couldn't believe it! I don't see how such an mis-understanding could persist through a whole DAS course.

Anyway, we soon pointed out the error of his ways!

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On my DAS I was told to use mainly front brake above 10 mph and under that use rear for slow speeds, this seems to work great.....when I remember so as not to make the front dive!

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Yeah it snapped at the pivot, I guess that whilst there was no visible damage, we actually commented on it at the time. When he pulled hard on it, bang it went. Thank god it wasn't when he actually needed it.

I cannot comment as to why his instructor had told him to not to use his front brake. I can only guess that there was some sort of fear of a low speed lockup

Re: Check fully after an off
 

boys and girls,


dont wait till you have an off to check things over,

its a good idea to have a look at stuff on a regular basis, have a look at your brakes, stearing, levers, bolts etc even just giving things a little tap or a shake now and again just to make sure everythings as it should be, things have been known to work loose, between services and for no apparent reason.......

Re: Check fully after an off
 

I am currently learning and my instructors have given me the following advice:
- 70:30 as a general rule until the bike is at 10mph and then rear only
- 50:50 in the wet
- Never use the front whilst on a corner

Naturally it took some time to get used to this but my instructor actively checked that I was using the right brakes at the right time. My overall impression is that some instructors just teach you how to get you through the test, and others teach you to ride properly and safely!

Re: Check fully after an off
 

Now, is it me or is this complete toss? No offence Jon, you're just doing what you're told, but you should be using 70/30 AT ALL SPEEDS! Yes there is a small chance of a front wheel lock, which isn't pleasant, but your back brake simply will not stop you quick enough! I would question the instructor about this. It may well be that he has a valid reason for it, and if so fair play, but it seems completely wrong to me. The front brake has two discs rather than one and a lot more power than the rear, so why not use it?

Ask the instructor next time you see him and post the result here so we can discuss further.

Cheers and good luck with the lessons!

Re: Check fully after an off
 

While it is good to check the bike over regularly and not just after an off I cannot see how any checks other then x-ray would identify the problem with the brake leaver you described.

I have had this happen to me also, a couple of days after and off and I'm back on the bike (a TZR125 about 6 years ago) riding it hard and having fun pulling stoppies up to the red lights. As I get home and am trailing the front brake as I wheel it back down the drive the leaver snaps off in my hand. It broke just after the big pivot block along the main leaver part.

So would the thing be replace your leavers even after a minor off?

Re: Check fully after an off
 

It gets worse. I was out for a tyre scrub with Dave and Lisa and she told me that their instructor had said the front is for emergency stops and for less than 10mph stop. she rides her R1 on the back only. Now I understand why she has some of her riding problems. They were taught by an idiot

She is now scrubing in her new tyres by not doing faster than 50mph for the first 100 miles. How the feck do some DAS instructors pass their exams?. It sounds as if the old way of you get on a bike and learn by throwing a 250 round at your leasure at least teaches you how to ride.

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Every line in your post is deeply scary!

Re: Check fully after an off
 

It terrifies me that there are riders out there who don't know how to use their brakes properly. I'm no expert so I can't and don't say that I'm right but my approach is much more like Bear - possibly 80/20 front/rear.

Jon, I'd love toknow why the instructor recommends rear only.

On one point I do agree. Avoid using the front whilst leaned over on a corner, the result is painful and expensive:(

Re: Check fully after an off
 

Now I was taught 70/30 (dry) but was also taught that for last 10 to 15 metres of an approach to any normal stopping situation, generally use your back brake only. Now the back brake, even on the SV is perfectly capable of bringing you to a stop at the very low speeds you would be travelling at, at this point and you avoid front dip as you stop (especially useful with pillion)

My instructor also stated that as with most junctions, the majority of oil and crap deposited by cars is at or near the stop line so if you catch a particularly nasty bit while holding the front brake it can be interesting. While on the back brake you would have generally more control.

Now ive tried both ways and find the above smoother and does offer (me anyway) slightly more control.

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Passed my test last week and this was the advice i was given also. When doing the CBT last year, the instructor got on the bike and slammed the front brake on to show us that you can grab the front brake as hard as you want and wont go over the top.

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I normally use 100% front brake (& engine braking) until I'm under 5mph and then use a touch of rear. If I'm emergency braking then I'll use some rear as well. In the wet, I'll use more rear too. When I was learning (about 13 years ago) we were told 75% front, 25% rear - which is fine for learners. Experience tells me to use more front, but the engine braking is so great on the Speed Triple that it almost removes the need for the rear brake.

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Thats what I do to.

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thats even scarier than some of the other stuff.
almost anybike is capable of locking up if you grab too much front brake,
i expect that a cg125 wont, but then that doesnt really count.

a bike wont travel far on a locked front without falling over, a front brake will lock if pulled on too fast,and if your on something loose then going over the top would be the least of our worries,

i think everyone should know the limits of there brakes, a lot of riders would be surprised by the power of there brakes and just how much stopping power they actually have.

i think its appalling that some instructors advise against using the front unless its an emergency, and they do !!!, a friend of mine, as advised on here DAS never touches her front brake and shes on a zx636!!!!!!!, here husban was advised the same , but hes a more natural rider and does what the bike needs, shes almost run into the back of me several times, as a result of not being able to brake fast enough, she tootles everywhere..........

i think saying that its 75% this and 50% that is a bit misleading, you can feel how your brakes are working and what theyre doing to the balance of the bike, and you should be able to adjust your input accordingly, a friend has a RSVR , and the back brake on that is practically useless, where does the 75/25 thing go with that bike?

myself i use far more back brake on the zrx than i ever did on the SV, it was practically unused on the sv because of the engine braking, but i find myself using it a lot on the IL4, especially in traffic, when i want to adjust speed a little but not load the front, do i use the back brake more than instructors recommend? i dunno, maybe, but it works for me and im very much in control and can predict what my input will do.

just feel it , dont be stuck by what your instructor, or some random internet buddy has told you.

Re: Check fully after an off
 

I'd love to know what is going on here. Most everyone (and especially politicians - apart from the "ban 'em all" brigade) agree that improved training is the key to reducing motorcycle accidents. If that training is blatantly wrong then increased training is actively causing more accidents and should be addressed with much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

My (hopeful) suspicion is that a lot of this is down to mis-interpretation - instructors should be ensuring that trainees don't grab a handful of front brake (or back really) whilst cranked over and perhaps this is instilling an undue sense of fear of the front in any circumstances.

Anyone got a copy of the DSA motorcycle books - eg. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Official-Mot...9838232&sr=8-5 - because if instructors are actually giving advice like "front is for emergencies only" then these people really need to be stopped from training as soon as possible. I really don't care if they preach 70/30 or 90/10 or anything really, so long as they demonstrate that braking should be really done in a straight line, and depending on conditions, the front should always be given significant dominance.

I remember my CBT instuctor years back did just that - they went along at 30mph, and stopped using only the back, then only the front, then both. The difference between front only and both had to be exaggerated a little as he wanted us to get used to using both brakes rather than never bothering with the back.

Re: Check fully after an off
 

almost anybike is capable of locking up if you grab too much front brake,
i expect that a cg125 wont, but then that doesnt really count.


Obviously, but the point I was trying to make was the instructor was showing us how hard you can pull on the brakes without going AOT, as the genral feeling of learners is that if you hit the front brakes with any amount of force you will go over, and that it actally takes quite a lot for it to happen.

The other learner i was with was a keen cyclist and was petrified of the front brake, and he did it to show her not to be scared of it.

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Interesting reaction to my post regarding using the rear brake only below 10 mph. Thought this was standard teaching so am now a little worried!

I cannot completely answer the question as this is something that I was told by my instructor (in fact by all instructors for the school I used) and not something that I do as a result of my own experience. I will therefore just tell you the reasons the instructors gave me for using the rear brake below 10 mph - note I was told to use both brakes at all speeds during an emergancy stop.

1 - rear brake is much better at controlling the bike whilst manovering slowly eg up to junctions/roundabouts, around slow corners ect.

2 - the front brake can be a little harsh at slow speed and when stopping it has a tendancy to make the front of the bike dive when you come to a stop - especially if you are cruising upto a junction at a consistent 5-10 mph and then have to reapply the brake to bring yourself to a stop.

3 - when approaching junctions/roundabouts, if you use your rear brake then your right hand is all prepared to accelerate if an opportunity comes up for you to continue out without stopping

4 - most importantly - the majority of your braking should have been complete before you arrive at the juntion so that you are moving onto it in a controlled mannor.

I was also told to use the rear brake to control the bike when doing my U-turn. Is this correct as far as everyone else knows?

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I wouldn't go so far as to say "much better" but, probably a bit less vicious. That said, you get a much better feel through your fingers than your toes, so can judge what's happening better with front brake.

Yeah, can be a little harsh, but practice and all that, plus the better feel through fingers mentioned above.

It's quite easy to be in a position to operate both front brake and throttle at the same time - eg. blipping on downchanges whilst braking. SV (and others) has a span adjustable brake lever if you need. Front brake much more powerful, so my counter-argument would be that with the front covered you're also in a better position to slam on the anchors should something nasty happen at the junction - and junctions are where a lot of nasty things happen.

I'd agree with this, only add that if you're practiced in using the front brake then it becomes second nature should you need to really use it in anger.

I think this is probably sage advice, sure you could use the front, but the back is going to be easier.

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Can I just add, give the bike the once over after you get it back from the garage following an off - Colin Colins returned mine with an almost flat battery and loose wheel nut. Neither of these were obvious when looking over for repairs to crash damage or on first start-up.

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I think the idea that you shouldn't use the rear brake under 10mph has probably come from advice that when manouevring the bike under 10mph the rear brake is smoothest - I don't have a problem with that.
The idea that when slowing from higher speed that once you're under 10mph you should switch to using the rear brake is just ridiculous. As to the front brake making the front dive at low speeds - just learn to ease off the brakes properly when you're about to stop - just like you do in a car. Some deeply worrying stories in this thread!

Re: Check fully after an off
 

Could it be that the instuctors are telling me to drive in a certain way so that I appear more experienced and controlled than I actually am. These could all be things that make riding a bike as a newbie smoother, but you then quickly leave behind when you actually start riding in the real world- a bit like some of the things that I was told to do when starting to drive a car.

Overall so long as both brakes are used for scrubbing the majority of the speed off I am hoping that this will not cause me any major problems. I should also note that the examiner on my last test didnt find any fault in my braking or control (except for that rather big error of putting the foot down on the U-turn :thumbsup:)