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This is terrific news. The whole idea is half-baked, there have been so many u turns on matters of detail that the legislation is now incoherent, and very little research on the impact of the proposals. Sure there have been dry runs but they weren't in large centres of population. The plans are a complete mess. So this is very good news for homeowners. The best thing that we could do to stop sales falling apart is to move to the Scottish system, but no the government had to reinvent the wheel - and surprise surprise, it came out square.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6680131.stm

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Mr. Ed(:) ) maybe then they should be consider a H.I.P. replacement?:rolleyes:

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mummy keithd will be pleased! she's in the process of moving and the thought of having to do this info pack was her giving me a headache...

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*twitches*

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Yep, bet the conveyancing department are relieved :) (Incidentally Ed, your folks not looking for a Solcase developer are you?)

As a first time buyer we were kinda looking forward to these, until they got nuked into oblivion and came out looking like an overpriced count of how many low energy lightbulbs the house came with :)

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As you may know, Im in the same business as Ed. I have also been watching with interest the HIPs saga from the beginning.
He is quite right, whilst the English Conveyancing system could do with a revamp, what the Government have proposed is quite frankly a dreadful mistake, which, will greatly affect the Property market and in turn have a knock on affect on the economy as a whole.
A delay to the proposals is NOT enough. The whole system needs to be scrapped. Something similar brought the Property market to it's knees in
Denmark and is likely to do the same here.

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Anything that may bring house prices down from the stosphere is a good thing for us 1st time buyers.

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Price crash you say? :-s

*wonders off to look at potential shares impacts*

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Yeah, I kinda see the point in that - in the same boat here, and talk of bringing the property market to it's knees is actually kinda attractive. Tax the hell out of the folks who already own 12 houses and pricing the rest of us out of the market so we're forced to rent one of theirs is my answer (but then I'm a little extreme).

Incidentally, the new legislation requiring rent deposit money to be held by a third party (tenancy deposit scheme) had an interesting little twist sneaked in - the third party is obliged to inform relevant tax bodies; that should stop a fair few landlords not declaring their rental income and not paying tax upon it. Of course, the net result may just end up being increased rents, but I'm kinda hoping that rents are depressed due to the huge takeup of (greed imho) buy to let mortgages.

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I'm currently awaiting word from my solicitors that we've exchanged contracts to complete on friday... which was supposed to happen yesterday... I've been caught up in this chain waiting for the planets to align since the first suggested completion date of april 27th...

That homebuyers pack won't help things one little bit. The legal "dotting the I's and crossing the T's" will always hold things up... nevermind the people in the chain being as unreliable as they always will be...

This system is whack. ... and I'm VERY short tempered lately...

:lol:

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Although the consistent rampant house price inflation we've had for a good few years now is likely equally damaging? Dunno, not an economist (as my bank manager will tell you!)

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Right, I've heard a lot about this and then not really took any of it in as the missus used to be an estate agent so she knows more about it really.

In Lamens terms, I understood ( correct me if I'm wrong ):

You pay approx £500 to get someone to check over your property ( a survey of sorts ) which helps give info to prospective buyers.

If this is true, whats £500 compared to the amount of money changing hands in the property market these days.

Does this not help propective buyers and prevent people from pulling the plug at the last minute due to some technicallity.

Also why don't we adopt the same as Scotland when buying property ie:
Accepting an offer becomes legally binding.

Forgive my ignorance with the above, just my understanding of it all.

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[quote=Ping;1193532]I'm currently awaiting word from my solicitors that we've exchanged contracts to complete on friday... which was supposed to happen yesterday... I've been caught up in this chain waiting for the planets to align since the first suggested completion date of april 27th...

That homebuyers pack won't help things one little bit. The legal "dotting the I's and crossing the T's" will always hold things up... nevermind the people in the chain being as unreliable as they always will be...

This system is whack. ... and I'm VERY short tempered lately..

To be honest Ping, you 'hit the nail on the head' when you referred to "nevermind the people in the chain being as unreliable as they will always be.." thats probably one of the greatest problems in Conveyancing.

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Ruth Kelly just made statement in the Commons. Apparently the HIPs scheme is being delayed for 12 months with the possibility of it being scrapped in its current form. Result. :thumbsup:

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Terrific!!!!!!:cool: :cool: :cool:

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It gets worse. The latest announcement is for HIPs to be introduced from the 1st August for houses with 4 or more bedrooms. :why:
If you ever wanted proof that this Government is 'as mad as a box of frogs',
this will be it.
Im absolutely astonished at the ridiculousness of this proposal.

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To be honest, I'm an awkward sod as well (no, really!). I haven't sold a house yet, but I've bought one.

I made my solicitor bend over backwards arguing over things about the house. I got a fair few freebies for my hassles too :) Originally things like the cooker (in a fitted kitchen), the kitchen table (nice, and would be tricky to get out the door), the fire in the lounge etc were not going to be left behind. I argued, seller caved.

I do just the same thing when shopping on the high street too.

Not a dig at you guys on here who are legal beagles, but I was paying an arm & 2 legs for their services, so they worked for it (probably didn't help that right off the bat they weren't returning phone calls etc).

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I'm glad that I don't act for you;)

As re introducing it for 4 bedroomed houses, watch people who live in them remove a bed and convert the room into a study and claim it's 3 bed with a study but with potential for 4 bedrooms.

No doubt the Govt thinks that people who can afford to buy a 4 bed house really care whether it's in in energy band C or D. Get real:rolleyes:

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I expect that you'd actually return phone calls from clients though, rather than (at least seemingly) ignore them. I mean, during the whole process (which is never quick for anyone), I don't remember them EVER calling us, or sending a letter in reply to a query of ours. All questions had to be asked whilst in their office, or they didn't get an answer at all.

An eye for an arm & 2 legs really. :lol: If the client thinks you're not doing the job, they either pitch up the game & make you work for it, or get someone else to do the job.

I'd put money on it that you're just the same deep down :)

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My thoughts exactly.............on all three paras! ;)

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Yes I do return calls but when we're busy it might take till the next day. I had a client call me this afternoon - he said 'I've been trying to talk to you for 3 or 4 days' I said 'yes, we spoke yesterday afternoon'. Fact is that you can only do one thing at a time. It's not fair not to return calls etc though. As re an eye for an arm and 2 legs, well for transactions between £120K and £250K we charge £450 + VAT. We don't charge extra for acting for a lender, and I don't charge for filling in the SDLT1 either. I've heard that some firms charge as much as £75 for this.

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My house falls neatly into that banding, and we paid the solicitor just short of £1k in fees. From memory, that's fee's to them, not expenses that they had to pay out.

I can live with waiting a couple of days for an answer to a question (for example, I ask you a question that you don't know the answer to, so ask the seller's solicitor, who asks the seller, then information has to feed back). Especially when the process takes months. I wasn't exaggerating when I said they didn't call/write, unless it was absolutely required for the sale to progress.

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having bought and sold in both Scotland and England. I can say that the scottish system is so much better and easier and less stressful. selling in england was a nightmare. buyers offering and changing their mind weeks later. couple that bought eventually were scottish. contracts signed on thursday at 8 pm and I had to be out monday lunch time. had a whole house to pack by myself with only a 5 year old and 18 month old to help. moved up here and paper work signed 8 weeks before moving in date.

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Agreed, totally barking. having just bought a 400k house, I felt the expense of a full survey was justified. Even that did not pick up the electrical and drainage faults, thankfully minor.
I dread to think what value a quick shuftie and light bulb count would have been to me - just extra expense for the vendor.
It would probably be of more value to purchasers of first time properties to save expense, but even then only so long as it had some clout.

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The HIP is certainly worth getting...you wouldn't buy a second-hand car without an MOT would you?

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No but it does not prove that the vehicle is roadworthy.

I don't see the similarity at all.

The government is on the run, another stupid idea, they refused to listen to the RICS, they have ignored The Law Society for many years over legal aid, personal injury litigation, miners' compensation, all sorts of things so why should HIPs be any different. Ruth Kelly has today found out that it pays to listen and has had to eat humble pie. As for starting with 4 bed houses, it's crass. Why not start with 1 and 2 bed houses where generally speaking buyers have less £££ to spend and so energy efficiency actually means something?

I really didn't think the Govt could make things any worse, but they have done precisely that.

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I'll reserve judgement until I've read the full report in the next few days.

I still believe that it is a good thing. Anything that cuts out time-wasters and makes a positive impact on the natural and built environment can only be a good thing. I think there are too many people out there going on hear-say and putting HIP's down without looking at the facts first. As far as RICS are concerned, they themselve are training up DEA's and HI's yet with the same breath are trying to force these people out of the market.

The system of HIP's itself has been used in the states and in parts of europe for years now and has been proven to reduce the money and time wasted in the home buying/selling process.

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Absolutely correct. I have been involved in property law for more than 20 years and feel that I am more qualified than Ruth Kelly on this subject!

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The intention was sound but half baked so yipee for a delay, maybe it will flounder some more and give time for a decent system to come in. Something is needed though even if just to prevent Friday afternoon chaos of chasing building approvals ( people doing unauthorised work or never getting them properly completed) and so on and believe me there are many, many of those which very often end up with a seller or purchaser in tears on the other end of the phone.

The focus is too much on sustainability, though undoubtedly very important, rather than the property in general being fit for purpose and accordingly value for money. lets face it new houses by major developers will all be very similar performance (its generally only build quality that separates them, not construction specification). If you buy second hand you just need to know the age of property to align it with building standards at the time the only other difference is if someone has stuck a wind turbine or solar panel on the roof and you have choice between tow otherwise identical properties.

HIP's should stick to making sure the building hasn't been illegally alterted affecting health and safety and the like. That could be implemented easily and quickly and would be very beneficial. IMHO:D

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Incorrect...you assume that that is what it is all about because someone may have said so...have a look at the proposal and see what is actually involved for yourself....
You can read the details here

Incorrect...as far as am aware (and without going into extensive research at this very moment to confirm this) they are still using it. The English/Welsh system is loosely based on the american HIP system. The software is slightly different but many of the principles are the same.

Not exactly true Ping, the HIP once introduced and up and running will drastically reduce the time between offer and completion because you will know what you are buying from the word "go". And yes, the conveyancing process does take quite a bit of time which is why the searches and title deeds are to be included in the HIP...so that the time spent at conveyancers is cut down.

You speak many a true word there.

Incorrect...read the full details on the dclg website.

Correct, but that is only a temporary measure until enough people are trained to complete the inspection when the rest of the housing market will be phased in as well.

Exactly...this is one of many reasons why the HIP is being introduced. Too many planning applications for 'conservatories' ending up as 2-storey extensions and such like as well as unplanned extensions and loft conversions etc.

Yes, agreed. But wind turbines and solar panels make little difference to the energy efficiency of a property. The fabric and heating/water/insulation systems being used make the biggest difference...so no, solar panels, PV panels, etc are in effect high cost low short term gain items...no matter what the salesman says:D


Exactly! As stated before, part of the process involves checking these things and more;)

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Jdubya, are you involved in real estate? I guess not.

It won't assist for the following reasons:

1. The Government has admitted that there aren't enough energy inspectors/assessors and that there won't be enough for some time.
2. Do you seriously think that here in Shrewsbury people buy a £300K house on the basis of energy performance? Dream on. And in London, where the same property is likely to cost £500K+, do you think it will matter there too? Do you remember when in the late 1970s the Government made it obligatory to advertise fuel efficiency for cars? Who here has a high powered car and yet gives a monkey's about fuel efficiency?
3. The Home Condition Report is now a voluntary part of the pack. And how long does it take to become a home inspector? As long as say to become a chartered buildings surveyor? Er, no. And do you really suppose that a buyer will rely on such a report, from someone who is not properly qualified and has professional indemnity insurance with the Never Heard of You Before Insurance Company, registered in Gibraltar?
4. So let's see what is obligatory. A statement of what's happening. Big deal, I think we could have worked that out for ourselves. 'Office copy' entries of the title from the Land Registry, if registered, or else an epitome of title if it's unregistered. That presently comes with a draft contract from the seller. Is the buyer really prejudiced by not seeing this before they make an offer? I think not, very few buyers would have a clue what they were looking at. A local search. Bear in mind that searches have a shelf life of 3 months before they go out of date for lending purposes. Yet the Government HIP will have a shelf life of 12 months. So, if the property hasn't sold within 3 months from the date of the HIP, the buyer will have to do a new local search. Great. Also, most HIP providers are publishing prices on the basis of a personal search, not an official search carried out by the Council's land charges staff, and backed by insurance. I occasionally see adverts for people to do personal local searches in The Law Society's gazette. These people will end up doing a dozen a day. Would you rely on one? Backed by our friendly insurance company in Gibraltar, which is impossible to sue?
5. Also included is a drainage search. Most people also do an environment search to check out previous land use. This is not a compulsorty part of the pack, and as lenders insist on one, no you won't have verything you need. Nor will you have a chancel repairs search, a Cheshire Brine search or (in metalliferous mining areas) a tin search - very important in Devon and Cornwall, a coal search, or, if rural, a commons and village green search. And if you live in a rural area, where there might not be an adopted road, you don't have to disclose the nature of the access - for example, quite a few properties here in rural Shropshire, particularly the south, are accessed by 'BOAT' - Byway Open To All Traffic. This is a public right of way but not maintainable at the public expense. I doubt that there are many of those in London. So no you definitely don't have everything.
6. Well at least they include planning info. And leaseholds - you have tro include up to date ground rent and service charge info. This in reality is the best part of the pack, because getting this info from ground landlords - who are usually there only to make a profit - often takes far too long. However most ground landlords are well aware that the info is required, failing which there will be no marketing, let alone a sale, so no doubt will gear up to charge accordingly.
7. The Energy wotsit. You can market without one, as long as you have applied for it, but you have to wait 14 days. Why??? The Government so far has no explanation.
8. Your point about conservatories. Most don't require planning permission, only if the house has already exceeded the 'permitted development rights'. And most don't need building regulation approval either. I don't see the issue.

And most HIP companies produce just one copy, and expect a bung of £25+ to produce another, and to rub salt into the wound retain copyright in the info.

I could go on and on, but I think I've probably given enough info here.

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Ed,
I find the tone of your post rather disturbing and very belittling and as such my response will be short.
As you may or may not have gathered I am involved and have been for quite some time and decided to change from construction to train as an HI. No, I will never be a chartered surveyor...if I wanted to I would have done so after university. Now in response to your statements.
1. Yes, they have admitted hence that date change and the limitations imposed on the minimum number of bedrooms to 4.
I'm not happy about either but that is because it is earnings lost to me.

2.Whether or not people care if their homes are rated and A or a G is irrelevant...it is a directive set out by the EU that stems from the Kiyoto agreement that all countries need to cut carbon emissions by certain dates. The UK signed up to the agreement so we have no choice but to comply and as such more and more people are becoming very aware about how 'green' they are.
3. Yes, the HCR is voluntary but how many people have a home-buyers survey which costs anything between £300 and £500 and is essentially a 'drive-by'? As far as the qualification of the HI is concerned...the HI is a level 4 qualification and requires a standard of learning at that level. (RICS are training HI's as well)I personally have done well over the odds regarding my studies over the last year. And just so you know, my indemnity and public liability insurance is arranged via RICS...not some company based in Gibraltar.
4.I dont know who will be doing the searches for the PP I'll be working through so I cant answer that right away. No, the HIP is not valid for a year, the EPC is but that is only an interim measure until such time as there are enough qualified DEA's/HI's to cover all areas.
5. Ed, I'm not too sure where you got your facts for this from but all of these searches are and should be included in the pack...it certainly is an excercise the HI needs to prepare and provide to the PP.
6.Yes, that info should be included in the pack as well. No, I cant see anyone gearing up to charge extra for it. Yes, delays may occur because of info not being readily available but that is the reason why marketing should only commence once the pack is in place...so the sale can progress smoothly without the wait during the sale process.
7.Wait 14 days? Who said that? Where? Once the report has been lodged it is made available immediately AFAIK.
8. The point is that people will try anything to get around planning permission.

How much extra does a chartered surveyor charge for additional copies of their reports then? A lot more than £25! Thats why mate can drive round Devon in a £100K AMG mercedes benz;)

I know there are flaws to the system but so do many things...including the current system of property buying and selling. At least the govt are trying to move forward with it albeit that they're being ****s about the way in which they're going about implementing it.

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We each have vested interests and come at this from different sides of the fence. My comments are not intended to be disturbing or belittling but I firmly believe that the current proposals are simply unworkable.

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I agree totally with Ed, and for the sake of repeating myself, feel that more than 20 years experience and Legal Qualifications, qualify me to make this statement.
Yes, the English Conveyancing system needs a revamp. The proposed HIPs
WILL make matters worse.

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I can see how you would find it unworkable but surely there is a potential business opportunity in this for you as well if you do any conveyancing work? A friend of mine works for a law firm in London and they have set themselves up as pack providers so all the conveyancing is done in-house and the inspections are subbed out to selected HI's...makes sense doesn't it?

Can't see how TBH:)

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Guess we will have to agree to disagree then. :D

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hAVENT READ ALL OF THIS THREAD YET, oops i stop shouting now :oops: but it interests me greatly.
But i just wanted to add this to the mix... the HIPS idea was one of the contributory factors to my leaving sales in the property industry after 15yrs of doing it.
I even looked into the possability of becoming one of the home inspectors myself and had to sign up with the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister in order to be kept up to date about what the Govt were doing. Afetr a few "updates" from them i decided this was gonna bea dead duck and i didnt persue it even tho i was invited to attaend expensive training courses i was not qualified to attend. :roll:
Whole thing has been a joke and how the hell do they think they can charge VAT on the pack??????? How does that count as a "luxury item" which is what VAT is added on for???

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The cost of a HIP = £300 - £500

The fine for selling a house without one = £200 according to the BBC

:thumleft: Priceless

I can see the long term advantages of having them for ALL homes, 4 bedroom homes only is pointless.

I bought my first home at christmas and its 4 bedroom, yet its brand new with 10 years NHBC warranty so why does my house need one. Its like news car not needing an MOT for 3 years.

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Thats £200 for everytime you 'market' the property to an individual without a HIP though. ie. House details sent to A, B, C ,D - that will be £800 thank you. :(

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It would not need one if it was new.