Not quite sure how I feel about this story
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/m...er/6938790.stm

Basically a man discovers another man in his fourth floor flat. After an exchange of words the intruder is apparently thrown out of the window and later dies. The man whose flat it is was arrested and later bailed on a "wounding with intent" charge - max penalty is life.

Part of me thinks the burglar got what was coming to him and the flat owner should be applauded.

Part of me thinks that the burglar should have just got a damn good kicking.

What does anyone else think?

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Me thinks burglar was that stupid that in his panic to get away he jumps from the 4th floor window. Darwin's principle apply and one less contributor to a defective gene pool

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Hmmm yes this would be a difficult situation... me i would want to kick the crap out of him to defend my family and possesions, but i would be worried about going to jail for doing so.

The law is not in favour of the victims, or that is the way it seems, and there has been cases where the attacker/burgler has successfully sued for damages.

However the law does permit you to use resonable force to defend your property and if that would mean me knocking the guy out then so be it ;) I'd rather flatten him with my hockey sticks than let Lupo get hold of him as i know me dealing with it the guy stands a chance of survival ;)

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If I wake up & there's a strangge man in my bedroom then I have no idea if he's a burglar or a sodomist. I have no idea if he's armed, on drugs or his physical streength. He's broken into my house. He's broken the law & must accept the consequences.

Any chance to take him down, I'll take it.

Primary concern: Protect yourself & your family.
Secondary consideration: Obey the law.

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it says 'burglar' in inverted commas. I have a feeling there is more to this. Do you get a lot of 43 year old burglars? Maybe they knew each other. Sounds too sketchy for me to comment.


If it is jsut a burglar then I say throw him out of the window! Tony Martin rules!

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I read 'burglar' as meaning that as the bloke was dead he couldn't confirm that he was in fact a burglar. He may have just been a tresspasser(!).

As for Tony Martin: I thought he waited for that kid to walk past him then shot him in the back?

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What timwilky said! :)

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He shouldn't have been where he was. If he were a law abiding person he would not be dead now.

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The kid broke in, Tony Martin came downstairs, the kid legged it and Tony Martin shot him. He didn't wait or anything like that, just shot whoever had broken into his home. Fair and square if you ask me.

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The Tony Martin case was a bit more complicated, and there was definitely more going on than the tabloid "man's house is his castle" ranting; the jury clearly thought so. For starters, a grown man who collects teddy bears, and then brings a teddy bear to court every day? And remember, his shotgun licence had been revoked earlier after he took a pot shot at scrumpers. You might say the burglar wouldn't have died if he hadn't broken the law by breaking in, similarly, he wouldn't have died if the shooter hadn't illegaly kept a firearm (actually, multiple firearms).

I'm not saying the case doesn't raise a lot of questions but Tony Martin is not the best champion for the argument.

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a legal eagle type told me Trespass is often misunderstood, and is defined as entering a third parties property, with malicious intent.

Ie, if there is no intent to, or actual, harm done it strictly speaking is not Trespass.

True? False?

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You mean to tell me that if someone walks into my home but only intends having a quiet chat and just borrow some of my belongings they are quiet at liberty to do so and there's nothing I can do about it?

I think not....where's me teddybear! :)

Someone breaks into my home, which they would have to do because it is 'always' locked, day or night, they had better be a paid up BUPA member cos they aint going to be walking out! :smt108 ...and I'm a very light sleeper! :thumbsup:

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Stay off private property! Death may be a little harsh but he knew the risk!

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Tony Martin was being burgled every fortnight, and the police did nothing. Maybe the police should be the ones being questionned. The poor guy was terrorised to insanity -he moved every possesion he owned upstairs in fear of the kids. I'd have done the same thing!

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I think it's ridiculous that we can't defend our own property anymore, and give the scum a good hiding, without fear of being charged for abh, etc...

Ridiculous - if they don't want a hiding, stay the heck outta my house!

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Tony Martin said he was burgled every fortnight. The police were extremely unsure as to whether this happened, bonkers people have a tendancy to make things up on occasion. He also said he'd like to tie gypsies up with barbed wire in his field and machine gun them.

The original jury were given the option of a manslaughter charge, they went with murder. On appeal the claim for self defence was also again rejected. What was accepted was a claim for paranoid personality disorder, and so on the grounds of diminished responsibility the charge was dropped to manslaughter as he was mental. Mentally ill people with guns usually get a different kind or press coverage.

His first parole hearing rejected his application for parole as they still found him to be "a very dangerous man".

Basically every turn of the British legal system found him to be not acting in self defence, but the actions of a mental case with an illegaly held firearm, the jury, the appeal court, and the parole board.

And on release (after three years) he urged people to vote BNP and went to National Front gatherings. Like I say, bit of a fruit loop. With a gun. Never a combination that's going to end well.

Again, I'm not saying the case didn't, and doesn't continue to, raise issues that need addressing, but Tony Martin isn't the poster child for that campaign.



Refs:
General overview - http://www.guardian.co.uk/martin/art...214336,00.html
Parole board rejects parole - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1136392.ece
Tony Martin on BNP, National Front & "Dictator a good thing" - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...18/ixhome.html

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cant believe im saying this.......

what Tim said................

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When do I start?!
:smt068 :smt027:smt117


(they were the best gypo pictures I could find. a dude with a knife - and someone stealing a pet) ;)

Re: Not quite sure how I feel about this story
 

My old man is a farmer. We've now got one of them posh alarms that rings the police if someone breaks in, but when i lived with em, there was a sign on the front door "Intruders will be shot first, questions asked later" and we meant it. Human instinct is to defend your family and property. I doubt the thought of "oooh but i might get into trouble" crosses your mind when some thieving little thug is in your house. Throwing a guy through a 4th floor window does seem a bit extreme, but I'd sooner do that than let the c$£t do it to me. He took a gamble and lost.

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Doest say if he threw him or he fell, so until they clear that one up they shouldnt charge him. But if he did throw him good luck to him

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i agree with philbut !

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I too wonder if he was a particular type of "burglar" and things got out of hand from there.;)

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...and whats that about not knowing your enemy? The burglars picked on the wrong old man this time! A real nutter with a real gun! Maybe if burglars knew they had a real good chance of getting sliced up when they broke into a house they would earn a living like the rest of us instead of stealing someone elses!! :(

Oh and throwing someone out of a window? Crime of passion? :)

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Gonna have to wait for more details on this one methinks. Yes you can use reasonable force but throwing someone out of a 4th story window isn't it IMO. Unless of course the burglar was about to stab/shoot the other guy and it was the only way to defend himself.

Otherwise, will be interesting to see 'how' exactly he fell out of the window. Don't think the other guy will have much of a chance if he threw him out without justifiable cause. I think a beating is fair enough but this...

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My personal view is straightforward:

If someone chooses to take an action that is outlawed by the legal system, then they have implicitly waived their right to protection by the same legal system following a consequential event, i.e. if you start something illegal, don't complain or expect support if the consequences to you are nasty and/or illegal - anything goes!

Unfortunately, this opinion is not the official view of the authorities.

However, in the case of this story, the assumption is that there was a break-in etc., but it's a bit vague. I do know that parts of Chorlton, where this all happened, can be quite dodgy. If it was a break-in, fine, get on with life. If it wasn't, then the surviving guy's actions need investigating. And generally, I also believe that the police know more than they let on throughout an inquiry. Maybe time will tell.

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So, if someone throws a cigarette but on the street its ok for you to shoot them in the face?

Or, basically, two wrongs == right.

I see where you are coming from alright.

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It's a fair cop: my 1 paragraph isn't quite a fully balanced replacement system (is it more a slip-on end can?) I admit it probably needs some sort of sense check.

But...hmm...why not? - it'd probably mean many less fag ends thrown out of the windows of the car in front!

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In Glasgow earlier this year a bloke phoned the polis to report that he had come back to his flat and found a window open and a bloke having a lie down in the alley underneath it...

The dead guy was a convicted housebreaker and the cops didn't even question the flat owner. Crime detected, case closed.

Again in Glasgow, about 10 years ago, me and Mrs Tiger were confronted in our home by a pair of burglars. After a brief, I think the technical term is 'altercation', one escaped and we held the other one till the cops came.

Whether or not I wish I'd thrown that ****er off the landing depends on what mood I'm in, but if I had done I don't think it would be keeping me awake.

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Hey Tiger 55 why not include it in the Highland games?
A whole new sport...burglar throwing! :smt003

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It always bemuses me how people can feel pity and indeed side with the criminal in cases like this or Tony Martin'.

Any criminal is a waste of space/oxygen etc i really can't see the issue with disposing of them.

As for the guy that fell/jumped....if he's a criminal i applaud the guy for launching him out the window!

The muslims have it right on this issue. One offence take a hand and if they persist then just kill them....job done.

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It's not a case of siding with anyone, it's a case or proportional punishment to fit the crime. If you're going to get killed on the spot for being a burglar, you may as well go in armed and kill anyone you find on the way anyway, as you're going to get killed if you're caught regardless. I break the law on an almost daily basis by speeding, if I knew the death penalty awaited me on capture then I may as well just shoot the copper who tugs me and get a few more days freedom.

If I disturbed a burglar then I'd like to think I'd beat seven shades out of him (more likely, he'd beat seven shades out of me though). But, let's assume I'd beaten him to unconciousness, at this stage should I (a) call the cops, or (b) open a top floor window and toss the body through it? It's precisely this scenario that the courts and police try to address, there is nothing against the law in defending yourself or your property, there is nothing against the law in using proportional force to detain a burglar till the police arrive.

And I'll say again, the Tony Martin case raised a lot of questions, but there are plenty of other cases that provide a better poster child for those questions. Tony Martin is a state certified mentally ill paranoid, one who supports the BNP and the National Front, one who bought a four foot teddy bear to court with him everyday, one who was already a criminal himself long before the incident, one who illegally possesed multiple firearms. It's worth noting that illegal possesion of a firearm now carries a mandatory five year minimum stretch - or should we deal with that offence by summary execution too?

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My reference to the Muslim punishment system was with regards to thieving and not any other crime.

I stand by what i said though...i dont see why one less thief isn't a good thing.

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I've got no time for criminals. 2 balls, 2 chances...

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Ok, just thieving then. So a burglar would be well advised to murder every man, woman, and child he or she comes across in the course of their burglary. The punishment is just as severe, and by killing everyone they leave no witnesses and lessen the chance of getting caught? What would you rather lose, your VCR or the lives of you and your family?

Even the bible (somewhat harsh on such matters) preaches an eye for an eye, not an eye an arm and a leg for an eye.

EDIT: Just thought I'd add, in case it needs stating - I don't like burglars, I'm not "soft" on burglars, I want to see less crime. That's something I'm sure we have in common. Where I guess we differ is that I strongly believe that proportional punishment actually does result in less crime and heavy handed draconian punishment actually results in more crime.

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The punishments already exist Matt for all the crimes people commit, its the judges being far too lenient thats the problem, the police catch them and present them to the courts and the judges just slap their wrists! ;)

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There are some updates on this case:

"43-year-old Sandiford was due to appear before magistrates on August 21 accused of `going equipped to steal'.

He was allegedly found in possession of bolt cutters, wire cutters, a screwdriver and a torch on June 11."

Police are not taking any action against the homeowner, and are not treating the death as suspicious.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co....d_burglar.html
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co....lar_death.html

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And lo, it came to pass that there was the sound of knees jerking across that virual place known only as "the .org"......... :lol:

Seems to me that we, the great unwashed, are not yet in full charge of the facts.

It was a warm night and the window my well have been open anyway. Said burglar could have fallen out of the window during a scuffle with the home-owner, who was perfectly legitimately protecting his family/posessions, i.e. it was an accident and not an intentional occurence.

Whatever the circumstances, I bet the homeowner feels real bad right now, and he has my sympathy.

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I bet he feels bad about having his home violated but there's a strong possibilty he feels great about the scum being dead.

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Speaking purely personally, I doubt that very much indeed.

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Theft, burglary, rape....you know, some things are not justifiable in any way, shape or form!

I don't feel sorry for the dead man....I do feel sorry for all the people he has burgled who now live in fear. 8-[