Total suspension Change
 

Hi all, sorry this is another suspension question! *groan*

I am trying to get some good gen on makes, prices, fitting costs etc. of a complete front and rear suspension change...

I was thinking of the GSXR front USD forks swap to sort the front end out and possibly the ZX6R 636 rear shock change for the back.

JHS racing quoted me £1,000 for the front and £550 (without fitting) for the back and advised against the 636 shock.

I've set myself a budget of roughly £500 and am basically after advice on how to start the process, from parts suppliers to fitting companys, I would like to try and do all the work myself but if there's any bits that need machining (new yoke clamps for example) then any phone numbers or company names would me most appreciated.

There's plenty of advice on this forum regarding setups so really i am just after information regarding the hardware, forks, clamps, shock etc. etc.

Thanks for reading and again, thanks in advance for any help whatsoever!

Si

P.S 2001 black curvy, few mods, picture up soon!

Re: Total suspension Change
 

First thing i would do is:

Look for: Complete front end off a GSXR600K4-K5 / GSXR750K4-K5

You need: Forks, Yokes, Clip ons, Master cylinder, Calipers, Wheel, Spindle, Discs and brake lines.

For the road you wont need to change anything in the forks to start with. Unless your exceptionaly light or heavy.

Expect this to cost between £450-£700 to source the parts. You can then sell your complete front end to offset some or most of the cost.

To fit this front end you will need bearings that fit the headstock on your bike and the yoke from the GSXR.

So estimated cost - £300...

Rear end wise I would never recommend fitting a shock which has been built and intended for use on another bike. Why?. It isnt just spring rate. Internal valving is set for that particular bike to work with swingarm length and linkage rate etc. The ZX6 shock is notoriously wrong for the bike its intended for..let alone using it on an SV. 99% of the experts who deal with suspension day in day out will suggest the same.

Far better value is to fit something like a Nitron..£470 or an Ohlins £490. If your uprating the front end to the extent you are any skrimping on the rear will just be false economy. It will potentially be an awesome bike with that set up..plus when you come to sell it...sell it with the stock shock and you will see at least £350 back for the used Nitron or Ohlins.

Re: Total suspension Change
 

^
What he said.

I have a Nitron Racing shock on mine and it's superb. I'm going to do the front end as soon as fund permit and it looks like I'm going to go for the Matris fork internals (£300). Any experience of those/comments on them, SV650Racer?

Re: Total suspension Change
 

Changed your post slightly in my quote;)

RobW on here has had experience working with them and rates them highly. Personally I havent heard a bad word said about them.

Re: Total suspension Change
 

Whoops, sorry about that, I had your and Steve's accounts mixed up. #-o:)

Ta for the feedback on the Matris internals, they are looking more and more like the right choice.

Re: Total suspension Change
 

I've got the Matris internals in my Pointy, it felt really stiff at first, but it has since bedded in and has made a fantastic difference to the bike.
I've got a Ohlins rear shock, and am now thinking about getting the bike set up by someone who knows what they are doing.
It's amazing how much better the bike has become since changing the suspension!!!

Re: Total suspension Change
 

Where in the uk can you get matris internals and are they cartridge type kits?

Re: Total suspension Change
 

I got mine from PDQ. They're not cartrdige kit, but they replace virtually everything internally, and you get a nice new preload adjuster for each fork leg!
You get
2 Spacers
2 springs
2 Valve units (that push fit into the existing internal valve bit at the bottom.
2 preload adjusters
Oil
Instructions

Very easy to do (if all your bolts will come out, and you can do each leg individually), not too sure if they do one for the curvy but I'm sure someone will be able to tell us.
There is no compression or rebound adjustments on this conversion - something to bear in mind.

Re: Total suspension Change
 

Reading my PDQ catalogue, I thought these had a shim stack (and came with spare shims) to set compression/damping (although doing so would obviously require taking the forks apart again)?

Re: Total suspension Change
 

Well, mine didn't, but then I think the bike is just about right! I've hardly used any of the preload, and I love it!

Re: Total suspension Change
 

So are they no more adjustable than the stanard ones?

Re: Total suspension Change
 

Seemingly not. But don't equate loads of adjustability to equal loads of quality. Arguably, unless you know what you're doing with suspension, one with less adjustability makes it less likely that you're going to mess it up. IE Just because these forks have no more adjustment than standard, don't assume they are not better. :)

Re: Total suspension Change
 

How bizzare, i have just written an address label out to a Jackie Black!! Sppoky.

Carry on

Re: Total suspension Change
 

Think thats weird, a new lady has started work called Sue Barker! Not the nice TV presenter though!

Re: Total suspension Change
 

Think that wierd my name sake is on DIY SOS... (Nick Knowles) :mad:

Re: Total suspension Change
 

I have to use that name otherwise the kids at school would search on my real surname when I'm teaching and give me no end of grief.

Re: Total suspension Change
 

So what's your real name Jackie Black? Is it Jimmy White? :confused: :D

Re: Total suspension Change
 

nah, i've always been jackie black on forums and stuff though so i stuck with it.

Re: Total suspension Change
 

I wouldn't pay someone to do a GSXR front end swap, it's just making meccano really. The only hard part is the head bearing- and when I say "hard", I mean "slightly tricky". Likewise the rear, it's fiddly the first time but it's not actually difficult. Investing in an NWS stand or an Abba will make it pretty easy. Not for a first time DIY job, but it'd be fine for anyone halfway competent.

Paying hundreds of pounds would be nuts, frankly, unless they're revalving the forks- which I'd bet money JHS isn't here. Get the custom bearing from Twin Works Factory in the states, tell Zoran I sent you and he will, no doubt, have no idea who I am. But still, he broke most of the ground for this stuff so, give him the money not copyists, yeah? $60 I think it is for the top bearing, which is expensive for a bearing, but cheap for what you get from said bearing.

Also, I wouldn't recommend SV650Racer's approach for a street bike- it'd work but IMO there's better ways. The GSXR SRAD 750 yokes are almost an exact match for the curvy SV so you retain the steering lock and lock stops without any horrible bodges. Not everyone cares that much about this, mind, but IMO it's a bit daft to disable even this basic security measure. Steering lock's a very useful thing to have for a bike that you use out and about. It's also just plain nicer to have something that works as Suzuki meant it to- the SRAD front end looks like a factory fit. Also, the SRAD wheel is an exact cosmetic match for the SV rear- even available in the same silver and grey, which is a nice cost saving. Again, not everybody cares, but I do, it even annoys me having my current mismatch with the Dymag front wheel.

SRAD front end can be as little as £300 if you're lucky- that's less than the SV bits can sell for. Upgrade for profit! Though SRAD forks will likely be shagged.

But, just because you're using SRAD yokes, you're not stuck with decade old forks, you can fit Y-K3 750 forks without modification, which are a bit better and much easier to find in good shape. Or, you can also fit K4-K5 GSXR750 forks without modification, I believe. Still using the SRAD axle and wheel here. You'd need to find either smaller discs (easy) or get caliper spacers to run with 320mm discs (also easy) That gets you the radial calipers, which is IMO much less of a big deal than people claim, but still nice (the R6 ones are effective, and lighter than the Tokico ones too, much lighter)

Or, you can go a wee bit further, and fit the current GSXR forks, which are ace- best ever fitted to a japanese production bike, IMO, and not by a little bit. In fact, I'd rate them over the low-spec Ohlins you see on some Dukes. Very good forks. But, you need to either use a custom axle or machine one axle hole out, and use a shim in the bottom yoke. Hassle. Not entirely worth it I think. This will not stop me \\:D/

Oh, and get either TL1000S clipons, or taller aftermarket ones like LSL High-offset Match (thanks SV650Racer, top tip that, I love 'em). GSXR ones are very low and your throttle cables will drag on the fairings, as well as being uncomfortable.

Rear end... Well. I'm more of a fan of the 636 shock than most. It actually works better in the SV than it does in the 636. Which isn't saying a great deal. It's a rubbish shock frankly, but it still works surprisingly well, especially considering what a total bodge it is. It's also low risk investment- if you don't like it, you can sell it again for what you paid for it most likely. The most recent 636 had a Showa rear shock in it which may work better, practically nobody's done it with this shock but it's a higher quality item than the orrible KYB.

SV650Racer mentioned that nobody who works with suspension would recommend this- I entirely agree. Partly because people who work in the field naturally appreciate the best, they work with it all the time and it becomes second nature. But also because, dare I say it, they want to sell you a £450 shock and charge you £100 to fit it without even bothering to set it up in the slightest. The number of shops that just chuck an Ohlins into a bike on the standard settings is just horrible.

But, OK, I don't have one of those, I have an Ohlins. It's blingier, it's better, and it was cheap. I'd get another because I'm used to it, or rather I'd get a Penske as they're a bit more roadworthy- longer service intervals. There's plenty of others. Hagon doesn't make much sense though.

I have to say, I could be perfectly happy with a 636 shock, if it was in good shape. I prefer the Ohlins, it's undeniably better, but it's not 10 times better IMO, which is how much more it costs.

Oh! Remember that suspension needs serviced. It's one thing to do 50000 miles on an SV shock, because it's not great on day one, but please don't be that guy who does 50000 miles on an Ohlins and fits decade old worn-out forks, and becomes convinced that either a) His suspension rocks, when it's actually dying) or b) All this suspension stuff is a waste of money. Look after this stuff as you do your engine, and it'll pay off. If you want a perfect example of this, find yourself an owner of an NC23 or similiar, any of the old race-rep 4s will do. 3/4 of these are completely shagged, they wallow their way round corners like an SV after 10 pints, but the riders are always convinced that "This is one of the best handling bikes ever" because they read it in Bike, or maybe it was when they got the bike in 1993. There are so many bikes which should handle brilliantly, murdered by neglect or setup, and it's ridiculous.

Re: Total suspension Change
 

+1

Perhaps it is just a fluke that although reports say it is pants for the intended fitment, the 636 shock rates and size seem pretty good for the SV and 8) - certainly far better than stock and as norty says, the Ohlins isn't 10 times better that the price demands it should be!!! :smt103

I'd also agree about the pros not recommending it ... sure it isn't an 'ideal' solution, no one says it is, but that isn't to say it isn't a cost effective solution and in the right direction ... (so ideal in that sense but acknowledged as not the 'best') ...

If I was in your position, I'd go for the Gixer setup front and ZX rear NOW and see how you get on, then over time keep a look out for a proper race shock or put a bit of money away each month and save for a new one (you can then sell on the 636 for what you paid!!). My guess is that you will love the GIXER/ZX setup enough that you won't want (well need) a race shock!! It is the front end that is weakest on the SV and this setup will be light years away from standard SV stuff!! 8)

Re: Total suspension Change
 

Wow, just wanted to say thanks for all the advice and information it's been very helpful, especially SV650Racer, Northwind and Blue SV650S, much appreciated.
I'm currently stuck in Afghanistan doing a 2 month tour with the RAF, can't wait to get started when i get back. I can see myself having to do a few more tours though if i want to go for that ohlins!

Thanks again,

Si

P.S i'll get some pictures up and soon as i start.

Re: Total suspension Change
 

Watch out for the Americans Mate! :smt120
Sods Law by the time you get back it'll be winter and manky weather (BUT we will all still be enjoying biking)

Re: Total suspension Change
 

The Ohlins is 10 x better as it was built and intended for use on the bike its made for.

And cost for cost it isnt 10 x more expensive as when you sell it on when selling the bike you get at least £350 back for it used. Making it only 3 times more expensive!

Experts only recommend these shocks for one main reason:

To advise a customer when he requires advice you have to ensure you give the right advice. Advising him to fit a shock intended for another bike is not good advice.

Re: Total suspension Change
 

Like I say I don't think for a second that the Ohlins is 10 times better than a 636 in good working order, having tried both. Blue, also having used both, obviously agrees. Nobody disagrees that the Ohlins is better though, that would be daft.

If you're going to include resale, the 636 shocks don't lose value at all on resale so that would make them free by that logic, so the Ohlins would have to be infinitely better ;) :mrgreen:

Re: Total suspension Change
 

We always get to this point don't we!! :D

And yes, by SJs logic the 636 conversion is free (that is exactly what I though too when I was reading her post) :smt044

It is a good point though, a race shock WILL retain its value, so if/when you sell it on you should get a large part of your initial wedge back. :cool:

But who wants to put their hand ~£500 deep in their pocket to start with -for - lets face it - an SV650 that only costs what ~£4.?k NEW?!?!??!!? ;)

To me an Ohlins (etc) is just overkill for a an SV ... it is still an SV chassis ... if you are that worried about handling then it is probably going to be more efficient and better results if you change bike (you are already admitting defeat putting a GSXR front on it!! ;)) ... if you like the SV but want it to stay on the road a bit better, a bit of work on the front and a 636/GIXER shock in the rear and bobs ya uncle ... everyone is happy and it didn't break the bank!! :cheers:

The only places I see for a race shock being purchased is for:- racers - 'bling kings' - and people like Northy who just like to fiddle/experiment!! :-D

Oh and SJ - in the real world - how can you say an Ohlins IS 10 times better?!!?? Are you trying to fool us or yourself?!!? :D

Re: Total suspension Change
 

Ah, but blue, there's nothing actually wrong with the SV chassis... THe frame's as good as it needs to be, it's just the suspension that holds it back. DItch the bendy coathanger forks as well and there's no chassis limitation, sort the geometry and it really goes above and beyond what a budget bike should do, in fact, puts some recent supersports to shame in stock guise. Course, it's still just an SV motor :rolleyes:

Re: Total suspension Change
 

Sure replace half the bike and it is significantly better ... but at the end of the day the headstock is set at a certain angle ... the swingarm is positioned/bolted to the frame where it is ... the swingarm is a certain length ... the engine is where it is etc etc ... there is only so much you can do without cutting it up ;)

At the end of the day, you are going to put stupid money and stupid effort making an SV into something it is/was not! Unless you like doing that sort of thing, it just doesn't make sense!!! :o

Re: Total suspension Change
 

Headstock angle's not an issue since you can shift the whole bike... WIth a little effort, the SV ends up with essentially the same geometry as a GSXR. It does take work, but hte front end swap's cheap/free if you do it right. Height adjustable shock means you can give it the rear end kick it needs without mucking up the linkage rates too horribly. Swingarm's the right length really, though with the curvies you have a choice, the 2 models are slightly different. Again, GSXR comparison, the SRAD swingarm is hte same length as the SV. Well, slightly shorter but the axle positions overlap.

So, we're talkign £450. Frame doesn't need modified at all, it's better than it should be. Swingarm's fine too, maybe a wee bit flexy but that's not going to hurt too much.

Still not going to outrun a GSXR, but you can make it turn and bounce better than a standard one.

It should go without saying that you can do the exact same thing to a GSXR, then it'll be better than an SV, of course. But I like the SV engine :smt055

Re: Total suspension Change
 

Its a labor of love for you, I know (appreciate) why you do it, but it doesn't make any 'sense' ;)

It makes me laugh ... 'change this - change that - swap this - swap that - make it more gixer like by putting gixer bits on it' ... what do you end up with??? Something where the chassis is almost as good as a gixer, perhaps comparable, yet has a motor in it that only produces 50% of the power and something that you would need to seek special insurance for as it is so highly modified!! :D

So you put all that effort in to have something that can be out classed by anyone with 2-3k in their pocket (Gixer K1-K3 price bracket) and something that is a bit tricky (expensive?!?!) to insure properly. Its just silly!!! :smt044 ... If you care about handling, sell ya SV curvy for £1,500-£2,000, put the £500 for the ohlins in the pot too and you got yaself a Gixer 6!! - now that I can sign up too!!! 8)

Personally I don't care if my bike 'handles' .... I think the SV is a lot of fun, I can live with its warts and it is actually some of them that make it fun ... why make something into something it is not?!?!? ... you are better off getting something that does what it says on the tin to start with, especially when it costs no more!! ;)

Re: Total suspension Change
 

If my forks weren't worn out mine'd outhandle the current crop of race reps tbh. Though the rear has an easy job of it as it doesn't have to deal with such big inputs to be fair. Also, my objectivity is obviously nonexistant :mrgreen:

Thing is, you can achieve this dead easily, that was what I was getting at- front end swap can actually make you money, shock's a big investment but it's a one-off. Few hours of your time. Job jobbed. It's much easier when you're not mucking about with standard forks, cheaper too. Cheaper than a set of lowers, a double bubble and a single seat cowl.

The goal isn't to make it like a GSXR, far from it. It's to make it like an SV that works better than an SV :takeabow: To be fair, if the Street Triple or Shiver had been out back when I started, I'd've probably got one of those but then, nobody made what I wanted.

Re: Total suspension Change
 

Oh aye, mine's a mare to insure but you don't have to go mad like I did, forks and shock doesn't weight premiums much.

Re: Total suspension Change
 

Don't go giving Northwind any more ideas, Blue! ;)

Re: Total suspension Change
 

Yep. My insurers were okay with it, so long as I didn't put a GSX-R front end on it. No increase in premium for me for declaring a nitron shock and new fork internals. Admittedly, this was at renewal, so they might have just been trying to retain my custom- I'm sure if I rang up half way through the year they'd try to sting me for a £20 "admin fee", if not another £50 or so for the modification. Even so, this was the main reason for me ruling out a GSX-R front end. I also strongly suspect (although time will tell), that when it comes to sell the £300 fork internals in a couple of years time, I'll get about £200 of that back, much like the rear shock.

Re: Total suspension Change
 

This makes me giggle a tad.

So just because the SV650 costs £4k new..why shouldnt it have quality suspension such as an Ohlins fitted?. People spend out on exhausts, front ends, fairing lowers @ £400, screens, rearsets etc etc..so why not a shock?. The SV's chassis is one of the best around. Having had a champion from the big class ride my bike at Snett Friday he declared it was perfection..and also declared as a road bike it would be awesome!. Ok so forgiving the £ i have spent on it..if you can get close..why bloody not!

Your seriously kidding yourself if you think that just because its a £4k road bike it isnt worth it.

IMHO having ridden many makes of bike in varying guises good top quality suspension for the road is just as important as the track. Why spend £4k on a bike, then say £300 on an exhaust...£400 on lowers..some sticky tyres and then scrimp on the most important part of the riding experience.

Maybe i have been spoilt having ridden very well setup bikes over the years. Or maybe its given me the experience i require to say, yes it is worth it.

Ok i have the money to spend on it. TBH i reckon thats far better grin factor too having something like a new SV on the road with top notch suspenders..than wacking out equivilant £ for a 6 year old in line four 600.

Re: Total suspension Change
 

I agree - the bike has plenty of power, and the chassis is brilliant. The fact novices and experianced riders can have fun on it shows this. Hoever, the suspension is basic, and upgrading it is an excellent idea. Next year, when I get the restrictors out, I'll upgrade my suspension. The rear shock is probably very tired now, and the front is just way too soft!

Matt