The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

OK so ... most of us will have heard all sorts of stories regarding the E10 fuel compatibility issues that may or may not affect us. The main concern as I understand it is that it can damage fuel lines etc in older SV's, ie ... my 1999 curvy! So, with this in mind I intend to change all my fuel lines for 100% ethanol safe lines (relatively easy and cheap to do), my other concern is ... are there any parts in the fuel delivery (carbs) that would need changing? Ie ... gaskets/ O rings/ etc? I know that E5 is still going to be available for the foreseeable future so I'm not overly worried about it but having witnessed the mahoosive queue at my local filling station this evening by motorists only wanting E5, I have concerns over availability when I want to fill up. Back to topic ... does anyone know if there are any suppliers of E10 safe carb rebuild kits for the curvy ?
I've been searching the Web but not found any yet.

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

E10 isn't recommeded for my DRZ400s either. I've had to splash out and pay the extra for E5 today. Brought the grand total I fitted in the tank to £6 instead of £5. It has a very small tank.


Not sure I understand the difference between E5 , E10 and how it relates (or doesn't?) to octane?


No help with carb kits etc, sorry.

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

E5 = 5% ethanol- 95% fuel
E10=10% ethanol- 90% fuel
Higher the E percentage... the less 'bang for your buck' you get!

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

Premium unleaded is still E5 if you're really concerned. The cost on the SV where you're probably filling up 13-15 litres, is probably an extra £1.30 a time? So in reality for every 12 tanks of fuel you've 'spent' an extra tank.

AFAIK using the fuel is fine in *most* machines. The real difference/potential for it to cause issues is if you're storing a vehicle with E10 in the tank for a while as the ethanol will separate out and attract moisture.

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

Not good for carbs, but then regular fuel isn't either if left to sit.

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

I understand that but how does it relate to octane? Why is E5 now called premium when it used to be normal?... is it still higher octane or does that relate directly to the ethanol content?

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

Ethanol actually boosts octane not reduces it.
https://tinyurl.com/ym4xrx5u

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

I've read that ethanol actually boosts octane to achieve the minimum 87 rating required. The 'bang for buck' loss is aimed at the projected increase in E5 fuel ... average £15 extra for a 55 litre tank.!!

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

you have all been running your vehicles on E5 for the past ermm ages... if ethanol was going to do damage to your vehicle it would have done so by now so an extra 5% is not going to suddenly destroy things.

if your that worried about it then use a fuel stabiliser every top up.

its the media and fools that are scaring everyone, its the whole unleaded v leaded scaremongering all over again.

premium unleaded will stay premium but E10 95RON , its super unleaded that might stay E5 98RON. then you have weird ones like V-Power which is 99RON. there is no benefit to using a higher RON rating if your vehicle was not designed to use it. fuel like V-Power on the other hand has a lot of good additives that aid in keeping the combustion area clean, these additives are also partly responsible for raising the octane rating.

there is absolutely no rush to change anything that "might" deteriorate due to the extra 5%E. if your worried then keep an eye on your fuel lines for them turning "mushy" to touch. but as i have said if your worried then use a fuel stabiliser.

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

Genuine question.. why aren't we running on 50 percent ethanol then?

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

Good question. Probably something to do with production costs or something equally bizarre.
In reply to a previous post ... I'm not overly worried about using E10 as I've been using E5 for ever, my original question was ... is there an Ethanol safe carb kit for my curvy? Only considered replacing the fuel lines while I was doing a major service and my fuel lines (although in excellent condition) are still the original items from 1999, I've never minded a bit of overkill when it comes to engineering or future proofing so thought I'd kill two birds with one stone while I was spannering.

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

AFAIK most modern carb kits use, "Viton" synthetic rubber parts and not the older butyl so I doubt even my 99 will be affected in normal use. I will be keeping an eye on it of course but I also suspect my the use of Redex will aid in reducing any problems. Even though it's not advertised as such I've never had stale-fuel problems when I have winterized my bike SV and using Redex or Carplan fuel cleaner.

Time will tell :)

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

In the US and many other countries, E85 is widely available. It's between 51% and 85% ethanol. Some drag racers tune their engines to run on it as it can offer more torque than E5 / E10.

https://www.caranddriver.com/researc...at-is-e85-gas/

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

Its also limited by the production capacity of ethanol. You need the raw vegetable material and of course the industrial complexes to make it. Theres serious doubt that at the moment CO2 emissions are being saved because of the fuel used to produce and transport the stuff. I suppose there is a tipping point where finally this is achieved but modifications will be needed in internal combustion engines to optimise their running on that level of ethanol so we may never reach it before electric takes over...

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

... and it's likely electric won't be reliable and widespread enough before they work out the next thing everyone needs to switch to. I've heard a few people say hydrogen will be a more viable proposition before electric is established and in general realistic use (affordability to the general population , infrastructure etc).


(Getting a bit off topic now)

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

IS super unleaded now split between E5 and E10 or is it all E5 still?

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

Esso Super 99 is E5 as is BP Ultimate. Tesco have said E5 will be available at some stations.

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

High percentages of ethanol can be used but as said, producing it takes some doing. The carbon balance when it's from corn starch is poor but from sugar cane is good - US use corn, Brazil use cane and have been for many years, but then they have very few people for the amount of land they have. Not sure about wheat, that'll be what a lot of ours is. You don't get many mpg though, and really you need an engine designed for it as it has a high octane number, so you want the extra compression to make it all worthwhile, and the combustion products are acidic so at high levels they can't be ignored (as in Brazil).

A Bibio says I suspect this will all be a storm in a teacup although the papers and the likes of MCN are no doubt wailing about it. Headlines and facts however make poor bedfellows so it's bull**** season.

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

why do you think there is a war on sugar in this country...... so the Beet could be used for ethanol production.

its easy to start a myth.. just put it out on social media and before you know it people go nutzzzz.

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

+1⁷

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

Obesity? 10% of 4-5 yr olds are obese, by the time they are 10-11yr old it's 21%.

In the US in 2000, 90% of corn production went to feed people, <5% for ethanol. In 2013 40% went for ethanol, 45% for feedstock, 15% went to food industry (for HFCS High Fructose Corn Syrup- the devil's candy, a cheap sugar based on fructose which the body does not process well but is widely used in the US). The corn lobby again.

70% of corn imports worldwide were from the USA so if corn is grown for ethanol less is available for food and many poorer countries relied on it.

Maybe ethanol helps reduce pollution but it's not the whole story.

old article from Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesco...h=6f45947f67d3

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

There are a lot of mis-understandings and folk-lore around.

Commercial pump fuel is made up of a mixture of ingredients, the blend results in or achieves a certain octane rating. How that blend is made up is flexible. Alcohols are just one of the various hydrocarbon based ingredients available to the blender. Historically a variety of different additives have been used (lead, MTBE, MMT, aromatics/benzene etc), many have been phased out due to health/environmental issues. Alcohols (ethanol) are relatively safe, though some issues exist (aldehyde emissions etc).

As far as the end user/consumer is concerned, there's no need to try to correlate ethanol content and octane rating.

95RON is exactly that, 97/98RON "super" is just that.
E5 has 5% ethanol (max), E10 has 10% ethanol (max).

For the UK market as of now, the "regular" grade will still be 95RON, just as it has been for years, but it will contain up to E10.
For practical reasons there will be a "protected" grade, which will still be E5. This is for the compatibility issues, older vehicles may have problems with E10 so some E5 will still be available.
It just happens that for political/other reasons it has been decided that the protected grade will only be available as "super" 97/98RON, largely to discourage the use and push people towards using the E10.
Octane rating is not an issue as long as it is sufficient, no problem using a higher rated fuel than the manufacturer specified (very many oriental made vehicles were specified with 91RON minimum so 95RON was well above that anyway).

While higher ethanol content can cause problems with some materials, the reality with older vehicles rubber hoses etc is that they age anyway, plasticisers get leached out, and a change to E10 is often simply the last straw. The most common material used for linings of fuel hoses for many years is NBR (nitrile), and it is generally fine with E10. Fluorocarbon elastomers (FKM/FPM, DuPont trade name Viton) is also fine but is usually confined to specific applications (float needle tips etc) due to cost. Burnt Viton is extremely hazardous.

Most of the evolution of fuel hose specifications has been to do with permeability and evaporative losses.

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

he tried one brand (shizz yank stuff) and came to the conclusion that its crap... hmm. i have seen a few of his uvids and came to the conclusion that he likes the sound of his own voice like most utubers.

if your going to lay any vehicle up take the effin liquids out... eery single vintage pro knows this. its only lazy sods like me who dont give a fek that dont.

i used the honda stuff earlier this year and it worked.

we now have E10... live with it or buy a horse.

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

A diesel horse ;)

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

Can you imagine the sh*ts a diesel horse would leave along the road?

https://i.imgur.com/VexAhgh.gif

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

Neigh :D

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

It is the combination of water and ethanol which is the potential problem. Note in the video he was talking about "water contaminated fuel", i.e. water had been added. If you keep fuel in a closed container it is not exposed to water, it will not magically absorb water from the atmosphere it has no access to. In a fuel tank, even a vented one, the space above the liquid fuel is vapour not air, only a very small amount of air can ever get in there if the cap remains on. The vapour is denser than air and will sit on top of the liquid. Lighter fractions will evaporate over time if left open to atmosphere, and it is these which are required for cold starting. Most petrol type fuels will go "stale" over time, some a bit quicker than others. As Bibio says, anyone dealing with sensitive engines (old vehicles/garden stuff etc) knows this and will drain and use fresh fuel after lay-up.
Carbs are open to atmosphere via the intake so can result in faster evaporation, degradation, and possible moisture contamination.

The moral of the story is that petrol goes off over time, don't let it mix with water, drain carbs if laying an engine up for prolonged periods, use fresh stuff to start it again next season. Fuel tanks are best kept full or empty if not in reasonably regular use. Keep containers tightly closed.

Remember that petrol volatility is increased for colder seasons (even here in the UK). Old summer fuel will struggle to start an engine in cold weather (not volatile enough), old winter fuel will struggle to start an engine if it has been allowed to lose the lighter fractions through evaporation and warmer temperatures.

E10 does have its issues, but in the vast majority of cases of real world use they really aren't a big problem.

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

Completely unscientific information here, but I've run 3 tankfuls of E10 through my Gen 3 now, and ..... it's made no difference at all to rideability or economy.

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

let's call that "empirical" information, it sounds better :)

unfortunately to complete the trial you now need to leave the bike for 6 months with only a small amount of fuel in the tank... (we'll wait).

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

wasn't having a dig Chris...

there are sort of diesel horses ****tin diesel all over the place.. its called gyppo's vans. lol

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

Heh, not going to happen, I don't lay the bike up over winter. I think the longest I've gone between rides is 5 or 6 weeks when the winter weather's at its wettest.

However, when E5 was introduced, I had my GT380 and there were all sorts of dire warnings in the classic bike mags, forums etc about how it would rot fuel lines, rubber parts in carbs, tank liners, crank seals etc etc. I had no problems with any of that.

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

Thanks for some actual facts Embee, not enough of them in the world of bikes alas

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

There is an article by the editor in my local parochial newspaper illustrating how corrosive E5 unleaded petrol has been to the plastic petrol tank of his 1999 Triumph Daytona. He is now on his 4th plastic tank and has commissioned a specialist to build him an aluminium tank as he says 'E10 will eat through the current tank in no time at all '.
He obviously thinks ethanol damages plastic.

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

Depends what the plastic is. A lot of plastics are perfectly fine with ethanol and petrol/gasoline, some aren't. It's up to the designer to specify something suitable.
https://www.curbellplastics.com/Rese...ce-of-Plastics

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

from MCN:
Triumph Daytona 955i used buying guide
There are a number of things to look out for on the Daytona 955i, including:

• Fuel tank - Modern ethanol-rich fuels can play havoc with the plastic tank if left to sit in it for too long, causing it to swell, go out of shape, and fuel to leach under the paint.

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

.... just to add, you'll probably struggle to find a reasonably modern car which doesn't have a plastic fuel tank. There's plastic and there's plastic .......

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

You would hope the plastic is suitable for petrol containing ethanol.

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

So Triumph apparently didn't specify a plastic that was suitable for petrol containing ethanol !

Re: The dreaded E10 fuel scenario!
 

Note : In the Suzuki SV650A handbook it states be careful not to spill petrol on the tank when filling up as ethanol can damage paintwork. Not that anybody does that deliberately but I did just that the other day ,as I turned the pump handle to face the filler hole petrol spewed out from what must have been left in there from the previous customer filling up.