Lossless CD ripping - which program?

Hello all and Happy Christmas (better late than never!!).
I have a question about the above.
I would like to backup my cds in a lossless format (APE or FLAC maybe?). The files must be an EXACT copy of the original CD.
Can anyone recomend a ripper that will do this in a relatively foolproof way? I have read a lot on the net about various rippers and what I would like is one with a single button for "exact copy, lossless backup" rather than having to select a load of settings that I don't really understand, and not really know if I am getting an exact copy or just a really close copy.
I know there's a lot of musicy types here, hopefully someone will know!
Thanks in advance!
Charley

[the_lone_wolf]

www.google.com

search "freeware flac cd rip"

????

PROFIT!!!

When you rip a CD to FLAC format the result is always lossless the only variable is in the level of compression. The level of compression does not affect the sound quality, only the amount of processing power and or time needed to compress and decompress the file as it plays.

Do you really mean an exact copy or an accurate rip.

An exact copy would be a bit by bit copy with no compression resulting in a file the same size as that on the original CD - so there would be no point converting this into another format.

An accurate rip is dependent on the quality of the drive being used and the condition of the CD. There is some software which will check the state of the file after ripping using (I believe) CRC checks - http://www.dbpoweramp.com/ seems to be quite highly regarded although I have never used it myself.

I find MediaMonkey is the most straightforward piece of software for ripping and managing music.

I came to this thread not because I have a solution, but because I thought the below may happen instinctively.

Originally Posted by binky61

When you rip a CD to FLAC format the result is always lossless the only variable is in the level of compression.

That's a common misconception. Let me explain...

[geek mode]
In general, audio file formats use compression in order to reduce file size and aid portability. Again, in general this uses the ZIP compression algorithm.

Without loosing any data in the audio stream whatsoever, the ZIP algorithm can achieve compression of 10-20%, regardless of what it's compressing. That's loss-less compression right there, using "standard" algorithms.

That said, yet again, in general, 10-20% shaved off the file size of a CD (600-800Mb) isn't really that useful for most people. Therefore most converting tools actually strip audio out prior to compression. Further still, compressing the data looses some data too! This can achieve up to 80% compression, and still be reasonable quality.

FLAC is different.

FLAC uses linear prediction to convert the audio into a series of numbers, which is then passed through Golomb-Rice code and then run-length encodes the stream. This looses no data whatsoever from the stream (depending on implementation of Golomb-Rice - I could go on about fixed point vs floating point samples, but that's beyond the scope of discussion IMO).

In doing the above, FLAC can achieve 30-50% compression, without loosing any original data.

Right then, now that we've established FLAC will not loose any quality (depending on implementation), there is something else that needs consideration in producing exact reproductions.

If the disc is not PERFECTLY clean, along with the laser lens on the drive, you will loose quality (FLAC vs original CD). The reason for this is that the CRC's involved are just a failsafe.

CRC's only provide an approximation as to data accuracy. For example, if I know an MD5 CRC, I can provide completely wrong data, but that data will still provide the same CRC, therefore the routines will assume the data is correct, when it's actually 100% corrupt. I commonly do this with system passwords (any system admins reading this, safe yourself a headache & ditch MD5).

We have the same problem in work with CRC's. We have a setup that self-checks files on a computer before it starts, for legal reasons some files must NEVER be changed. We can doctor files happily so that they don't match the original, but the CRC is still valid so the machine boots & runs. But I digress...

So long as the data coming from the CD isn't dropping too many bits, the CRC's involved with reading the disc will tell the computer that the stream is fine. It's not an exact copy though, even if you store every single bit read successfully.

If you're after true audio quality, you may as well forget the CD completely though. There is a certain amount of data lost when recording in the studio, and then more yet when converting that audio to CD format.

If you want a true exact copy of audio, you need to spend a LOT of money on hardware (more than record companies do!!), and then record it to a format like FLAC.

Before anyone dies of a heart attack, 99.999% of all audio lost by recording, burning the original CD & then reading it back in a CD drive is outside the human hearing range.

[geek mode off]

Originally Posted by Baph

I came to this thread not because I have a solution, but because I thought the below may happen instinctively.



That's a common misconception. Let me explain...

[geek mode]
In general, audio file formats use compression in order to reduce file size and aid portability. Again, in general this uses the ZIP compression algorithm.

Without loosing any data in the audio stream whatsoever, the ZIP algorithm can achieve compression of 10-20%, regardless of what it's compressing. That's loss-less compression right there, using "standard" algorithms.

That said, yet again, in general, 10-20% shaved off the file size of a CD (600-800Mb) isn't really that useful for most people. Therefore most converting tools actually strip audio out prior to compression. Further still, compressing the data looses some data too! This can achieve up to 80% compression, and still be reasonable quality.

FLAC is different.

FLAC uses linear prediction to convert the audio into a series of numbers, which is then passed through Golomb-Rice code and then run-length encodes the stream. This looses no data whatsoever from the stream (depending on implementation of Golomb-Rice - I could go on about fixed point vs floating point samples, but that's beyond the scope of discussion IMO).

In doing the above, FLAC can achieve 30-50% compression, without loosing any original data.

Right then, now that we've established FLAC will not loose any quality (depending on implementation), there is something else that needs consideration in producing exact reproductions.

If the disc is not PERFECTLY clean, along with the laser lens on the drive, you will loose quality (FLAC vs original CD). The reason for this is that the CRC's involved are just a failsafe.

CRC's only provide an approximation as to data accuracy. For example, if I know an MD5 CRC, I can provide completely wrong data, but that data will still provide the same CRC, therefore the routines will assume the data is correct, when it's actually 100% corrupt. I commonly do this with system passwords (any system admins reading this, safe yourself a headache & ditch MD5).

We have the same problem in work with CRC's. We have a setup that self-checks files on a computer before it starts, for legal reasons some files must NEVER be changed. We can doctor files happily so that they don't match the original, but the CRC is still valid so the machine boots & runs. But I digress...

So long as the data coming from the CD isn't dropping too many bits, the CRC's involved with reading the disc will tell the computer that the stream is fine. It's not an exact copy though, even if you store every single bit read successfully.

If you're after true audio quality, you may as well forget the CD completely though. There is a certain amount of data lost when recording in the studio, and then more yet when converting that audio to CD format.

If you want a true exact copy of audio, you need to spend a LOT of money on hardware (more than record companies do!!), and then record it to a format like FLAC.

Before anyone dies of a heart attack, 99.999% of all audio lost by recording, burning the original CD & then reading it back in a CD drive is outside the human hearing range.

[geek mode off]

Totally SWEET geekness! What I really want, then is as damn near to the quality on the CD I bought as possible. My original issue was only with bad sounding lossy formats and that my CDs get scratched after a few years floating around in my house/car/boat so I'd like to be able to burn another copy that has as close to the same quality as possible.
Baph, can you recomend any software (easy to use!) apart from the DBPoweramp already mentioned?

Thanks!!

I rip all mine to Media player which I then use to file serve the music to my Squeezebox wireless home system. I have to say that the quality after this is quite good actually. I have set it to rip whenever a cd is inserted so no selections to make at all. And the playback is instant and without fault. Either I am really lucky or this is an ok system to use. Mind you I do have a reasonable amp and speakers which helps, although it cant cover up a complete tosh of loss from a dodgy rip. So I vote the bog standard windows media player, thumbs up.

Originally Posted by Nekkid

Baph, can you recomend any software (easy to use!) apart from the DBPoweramp already mentioned?

Thanks!!

Having never used FLAC (I don't see the point personally as I prefer portability rather than storage quality), unfortunately not.

A short google should tell you the names of applications that support FLAC, which is about all I could tell you anyway.

As for "easy" - what I find easy, you might not (and vice versa).