Traffic offence - Org's thoughts?

I was driving home today, in the car.
On a roundabout with lights. 60 limit, I was doing say 40, approaching a set of lights. They changed as I went through them - I can honestly say it would of been a close one to stop in time (12 year old ford GAY-A, drum brakes)

Anyways, to my luck theres an undercover copper waiting at the lights at the junction to my left. He says his lights where amber when I went past him and therefore I 'must' have gone through a red.

Do you think I have anything to stand on if I went to court? I mean he has no hard evidence. Just his word against mine, and I feel really hard done by.

To make things worse I'm still within 2 years of passing, 1 more mistake and bye bye licence and summer + bike + only 3 points to play with = trouble!!

What you reckon, waste of time going to court with it? What happens cost wise? If I loose the case, how much out of pocket am I expected to be?

Cheers, Noble Ox

[Luckypants]

I had the exact same thing, copper was at other lights and reckoned I must have gone through on a red. It had turned to amber when I was a few meters away. My word against his, I took the fixed penalty as it was cheapest option. The magistrate will always believe a copper over joe public if no independent witness.

He didn't actually 'witness' an offence, only say his best guess is you committed an offence. Seek some legal advice but I think he hasn't a leg to stand on and is taking the pi$$. If the speed limit is 60, then the lights should take a little longer to go from one direction stopping to the next starting, for this very reason.

I'll say again, go see a reputable bike/traffic solicitor for a free consultation, possibly White Dalton.

Regards
Phil

Get a decent solicitor. It is for them to prove that you committed and offence if you deny it, not the other way round. Unless they have some hard evidence, the testimony of one copper shouldn't be enough IMO, but then I'm not a legal beagle. An amber light means "stop if safe to do so" and this is entirely a matter of opinion.

[Mr Speirs]

By the policeman's own admission there is no proof of an offence, all his own testimony proves is that when you passed the lights his were at yellow. He cannot prove that yours were at red. All about burden of proof and most choose to take the fine. Don't think jumping a red light is points. Might bf wrong though.

[Red Herring]

The copper will need to show that part of your vehicle went over the stop line after your traffic light had turned red, or amber and that you could have stopped safely. The later will be extremely hard for him to prove and is unlikely to be run by CPS, it's the former that would normally get you. It's important to know that he should be able to testify as to the colour of your traffic light, and be able to do so directly. He shouldn't be allowed to get away with "well my light was amber therefore his must have been red", although we have been able to use this kind of evidence if we then go on to say that we have checked the traffic lights through several sequences and this particular lights only goes amber this time after such and such a light has gone red (but we're talking a significant time period here, not a question of a second or two). He will also need to be able to say where your vehicle was when the light went to amber/red. Most of the time you don't notice this unless you are specifically looking for it, ie normally you are sitting at your light, it goes green and then you notice a vehicle still crossing ahead of you....

Now the reality. If you didn't argue much with him at the roadside it's very unlikely he will have recorded the evidence correctly. An ATS (Automatic Traffic Signal) offence is relatively small fry to most coppers and they tend to get really sloppy around them. The ticket he gave you is a £60 fine and three points, it's an easy out if you did do it. If you didn't and go to court the evidence of one officer is enough to convict provided they are credible and did it properly. If they convict you expect the three points and a substantially bigger fine, plus the usual costs. Before you decide go back to the junction and sit where he was and look at the lights. Watch a few sequences, ask yourself if you were the copper could you put a reasonable case across from where you are? Take some photos, especially showing what kind of a view the copper would have had of your traffic lights.

It's easy for us to sit here and say fight it, we're not the ones taking the day off work to go to court and risking our money, but if the copper is wrong you owe it to everybody to fight him. This is all sounding horribly familiar......

[G]

Interesting one this. He can not say in court that you DID go through a red light. There's plenty of resonable doubt there.

A good motoring defence legal eagle could probably rip his statement apart. If I could afford it I would chance it.

Originally Posted by Red Herring

and is unlikely to be run by CPS

Don't know where the incident happened, but the OP is in Solihull RH.

I was in court yesterday for DWDC as the result of an emergency stop where no collision occurred. All of the police on here and indeed my legal counsel, said the police would have been unlikely to event investigate this in other parts of the country, and where it was investigated, would never be progressed by the CPS.

My solicitor told me right from the moment we had sight of a court summons, that because I was in Solihull, I would end up getting my suit on and going to court. He thought however the CPS would decide not to run the case in court. Nobody with any decision making authority had looked at it up to that point, so a case with no evidence, put together by a copper with 1 year experience got as far as the court house

The CPS prosecutor (prosecution lawyer) did decide not to run it, and when he went to speak to the prosecution witnesses and the police officer in charge, he bowed to pressure and changed his mind. My barrister's opinion is that it's easier for him to run it and let the magistrate decide than face a complaint from the witnesses that it was not prosecuted.

My barrister told me as soon as I walked in the door that we did have a battle on our hands in the magistrates court, as magistrates are volunteers. They are basically members of the public (or society do-good'ers who think themselves important call it what you will). They are not professionals and have a legal counsel by their side to advise on the law and what decisions they should be making. My mother was once asked to be a magistrate in Solihull. Solhullians as a rule are very police friendly, so the courts have a tenancy to favour a police officers version of events.

Now don't let that make you think you've lost from the word go, you haven't. I got found not guilty yesterday, but I think the court actually wanted to convict me. They had sympathy for the lollipop man that walked out in front of me, and wanted to believe that he was good at his job, but the evidence simply wasn't there for the court to convict me.

It doesn't sound like the evidence is there in this case, so personally based on what you've written, I would fight it.

I was in Coleshill at the time. I don't think it was the Solihull cop shop - as he said I had to go to Nuneaton if I went to court?

Damn, in the car I asked him: But you didn't actually see me run the light?
To which he replied again: My light was on amber so yours was on red.
I replied: Well you didnt see commit an offence. My light was deffinatly amber. How can you prove me wrong?
Officer: I am going to check them now, and prove that whenever my lights are on amber, yours are always on red.
Me: Well take me with you and prove that to me.
Officer: No, I am not insured to take you unless you are under arrest. By all means do it in your own time.
Me (as a light hearted comment, not said in an arrogant way): Then arrest me!!!

He did a U-ee after he'd finished with me. So im guessing he did as he said. Should of kept quiet, and he might have forgotten...

Does it help that it was just one copper in the car? So effectively its his word agaisnt mine?

How much would it cost if ,worse case, I lost the case?

Originally Posted by Noble Ox

I was in Coleshill at the time. I don't think it was the Solihull cop shop - as he said I had to go to Nuneaton if I went to court?

Damn, in the car I asked him: But you didn't actually see me run the light?
To which he replied again: My light was on amber so yours was on red.
I replied: Well you didnt see commit an offence. My light was deffinatly amber. How can you prove me wrong?
Officer: I am going to check them now, and prove that whenever my lights are on amber, yours are always on red.
Me: Well take me with you and prove that to me.
Officer: No, I am not insured to take you unless you are under arrest. By all means do it in your own time.
Me (as a light hearted comment, not said in an arrogant way): Then arrest me!!!

He did a U-ee after he'd finished with me. So im guessing he did as he said. Should of kept quiet, and he might have forgotten...

Does it help that it was just one copper in the car? So effectively its his word agaisnt mine?

How much would it cost if ,worse case, I lost the case?

Maybe on a sticky wicket if he can prove the light sequence, and it depends if the court accepts that to be the case. I don't know enough about the law in terms of what the police have to prove as to whether that will be sufficient to convict, but sure RH or somebody will be along shortly.