Is the Pope right? - SV650.org

15-09-06, 08:07 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5349578.stm

I don't really know whether he is right or wrong; I don't understand much about 'Jihad', what it means, etc and I explicitly pass no judgement.

What I do comment on is that to my western perception, Islam has done a crap job at communicating its message. The image of Islam is pretty dreadful: most western people think of suicide bombers, people who fly crowded aircraft into skyscrapers, repression of women, unconstitutional mullahs, Sharia law with brutal and inhumane punishments, violent revolution, and the open preaching of racial hatred.

I think that Islam has a huge struggle to present a civilised image. The Pope is entitled to his views, and as the leader of one of the most populous religions in the world (incidentally, I do not count amongst its number) is entitled to start a debate on religion and violence. If leading Islam clerics disgaree then I think they have only to look at their self-image - and do something about it.

Ed

Balky001 · 15-09-06, 08:47 PM

You are right about perception. In many parts of the Middle East they feel the same about Christianity and the murderous crusaders and imperialist views of the West.

It's difficult to judge a persons religion of way of life by the standards of another but Islam as a religion has got a seriously poor PR image in the West at the moment - wasn't so bad when the Commies were threatening us of course! But then Judaism and Christianity has a bad PR image in many parts of the world too.

The Pope is entitled to his view, but a personal view should not be confused with a public statement (from someone of such high ranking and influence) or address and he has a responsibility to ensure his millions of followers are clear in what he was preaching. If he wanted to condemn violence on religious beliefs there are thousands of example he could have used where Catholicism was guilty, but he had to pick a quote that condemned another religion - if it had been about Jews, Protestants or Sikhs their reactions would probablt have been the same.

A generalisation about all religions would have been better and not ostracised the very people he should be engaging in this debate. Whilst Pope Benedict may have been using this as just an example, many of his devout followers will treat Islam with even more suspicion and lets be honest, those who are devoutly religious aren't often open to others views when it comes to God and Prophets.

It would be better if people just believed in God (if they want to) and be done with the rest.

15-09-06, 09:10 PM

It amuses me that whenever someone accuses Muslims of being a bunch of violent savages, they immediately become a bunch of violent savages.

Biker Biggles · 15-09-06, 09:17 PM

How dare the Pope stand up in what is now a major Liberal Democracy(Germany)in the heart of Europe and say something about anything.Vorboten

FS------

They are after you now.

15-09-06, 09:17 PM

Pot. Kettle. Black.
Bag of sweeties and a dirty trenchcoat anyone?
Hallloo little boy

At least the Spanish Inquisition made for a good Monty Python sketch.

And that whole backing the Nazis bit. Just a misunderstanding. Right?

The list goes on. The Pope, and the Catholic Church Big wigs can **ck off, as far as I am concerned.

Biker Biggles · 15-09-06, 09:32 PM

I think the serious point is that if Monty Python did a similar scetch about anything related to Islam there would be riots all over the world and fatwahs issued.They also did the Life of Brian,and while some Christians were offended I don't recall any rioting,and no one got lynched.There's plenty of possibly offensive stuff said by Muslims and others about Christianity(often justified)but I just can't recall the Pakistan embassy in London getting trashed by mobs of militant Christians.The problem is intolerance of free speach,and an inability to discern the Popes actual views as opposed to him quoting the views of a Byzantine Emporer dead for 600 years.

Balky001 · 15-09-06, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biker Biggles

The problem is intolerance of free speach,and an inability to discern the Popes actual views as opposed to him quoting the views of a Byzantine Emporer dead for 600 years.

I think that's what surprised people - why a 600 year quote from an Emporer being hounded by Islamic warriors? He was probably just a little ****ed with Islam at the time!

The pope is a very intelligent man - he knows what he's doing and he knew it would provoke this sort of reaction (he obviously likes a nice wind up every know and then) - I think he believes any advertising is good advertising - especially after Da Vinci Code.

15-09-06, 10:13 PM

He's just sore 'cos people wouldn't hire him as a babysitter!

Ian

timwilky · 16-09-06, 07:34 AM

I am a Roman Catholic.

These here muslims fellows are burning effigies of the leader of my faith. My faith has been insulted by them. I demand that they apologise, otherwise it will have to be the duty of all my fellow Roman Catholics to send all these non believers to hell.

Ridiculous sentiment I know. The pope in an academic speech used the words "I quote" and then the words of a 14th century Byzantine emperor.

As a muslim friend once said to me, many of his faith are illiterate, they are incapable of reading their own Qur'an and therefore have to use the teaching and interpretation of others. Those who are most vocal also tend to have an agenda.

No educated person could ever have an issue with somebody quoting a known historical source, especially in an academic arena where that statement would be analysed and shown to be the bigoted sentiments of somebody who died 700 years ago.

Freedom of speech is a strange thing. We all believe we have it. However where do we draw the lines, should there be lines. New rules about Incitement to Religious Hatred should mean a prosecution of any muslim who in the UK protests in a similar violent anti catholic manner to that we have seen on recent TV . I guess that whilst the rules were conceived as pro muslim when envisaged, that they will not be enforced by the politically correct upholders of the nations law.

Similarly is it right that academics can be prosecuted for "Holocost Denial" simply because they have a personal belief and talk about it

I despite my reputation on this forum am a tolerant man. I know words cannot hurt me. I respect your rights to say what you believe and expect you to listen to my counter argument. If I don't like your message I always have the option of not listening. It is about time the whole world grew up and learnt to live in harmony with each other

16-09-06, 12:06 PM

As always there are sections of society who will take a quote or element from a broader statement and seek to sensationalise it.

It would appear that that is exactly what's happened here and the feeble minded and those with an agenda have jumped on the condemnation bandwagon. I bet the vast majority of those condemning the pope have not read or heard the entire transcript. I confess that I have also not read the full transcript.

But let's not pretend this is a particular trait of moslems or indeed any other faith. Intolerance and ignorance are no strangers to religions and every faith has it's share of fundamentalists looking to create and profit from divisions.

15-09-06, 08:07 PM	#1
Ed Guest Posts: n/a	Is the Pope right? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5349578.stm I don't really know whether he is right or wrong; I don't understand much about 'Jihad', what it means, etc and I explicitly pass no judgement. What I do comment on is that to my western perception, Islam has done a crap job at communicating its message. The image of Islam is pretty dreadful: most western people think of suicide bombers, people who fly crowded aircraft into skyscrapers, repression of women, unconstitutional mullahs, Sharia law with brutal and inhumane punishments, violent revolution, and the open preaching of racial hatred. I think that Islam has a huge struggle to present a civilised image. The Pope is entitled to his views, and as the leader of one of the most populous religions in the world (incidentally, I do not count amongst its number) is entitled to start a debate on religion and violence. If leading Islam clerics disgaree then I think they have only to look at their self-image - and do something about it. Ed

15-09-06, 08:47 PM	#2
Balky001 Member Mega Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Leigh - on - Sea, Essex. Posts: 1,491	Re: Is the Pope right? You are right about perception. In many parts of the Middle East they feel the same about Christianity and the murderous crusaders and imperialist views of the West. It's difficult to judge a persons religion of way of life by the standards of another but Islam as a religion has got a seriously poor PR image in the West at the moment - wasn't so bad when the Commies were threatening us of course! But then Judaism and Christianity has a bad PR image in many parts of the world too. The Pope is entitled to his view, but a personal view should not be confused with a public statement (from someone of such high ranking and influence) or address and he has a responsibility to ensure his millions of followers are clear in what he was preaching. If he wanted to condemn violence on religious beliefs there are thousands of example he could have used where Catholicism was guilty, but he had to pick a quote that condemned another religion - if it had been about Jews, Protestants or Sikhs their reactions would probablt have been the same. A generalisation about all religions would have been better and not ostracised the very people he should be engaging in this debate. Whilst Pope Benedict may have been using this as just an example, many of his devout followers will treat Islam with even more suspicion and lets be honest, those who are devoutly religious aren't often open to others views when it comes to God and Prophets. It would be better if people just believed in God (if they want to) and be done with the rest. __________________ SV650SK3 - GSXR600K2 - GSXR750K6 - ZX636RC1H - HD Sportster 1200 - CBR600F 2012 - GSXR1000K7 - Triumph Bonneville T100 2019 - Aprilia Tuono 660

15-09-06, 09:17 PM	#4
Biker Biggles Member Mega Poster Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Barnet Herts Posts: 5,071	How dare the Pope stand up in what is now a major Liberal Democracy(Germany)in the heart of Europe and say something about anything.Vorboten FS------ They are after you now. __________________ On a clear day we stand there and look further than the ordinary eye can see.

15-09-06, 09:32 PM	#6
Biker Biggles Member Mega Poster Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Barnet Herts Posts: 5,071	I think the serious point is that if Monty Python did a similar scetch about anything related to Islam there would be riots all over the world and fatwahs issued.They also did the Life of Brian,and while some Christians were offended I don't recall any rioting,and no one got lynched.There's plenty of possibly offensive stuff said by Muslims and others about Christianity(often justified)but I just can't recall the Pakistan embassy in London getting trashed by mobs of militant Christians.The problem is intolerance of free speach,and an inability to discern the Popes actual views as opposed to him quoting the views of a Byzantine Emporer dead for 600 years. __________________ On a clear day we stand there and look further than the ordinary eye can see.

16-09-06, 07:34 AM	#9
timwilky Member Mega Poster Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Not in Yorkshire. (Thank God) Posts: 4,116	I am a Roman Catholic. These here muslims fellows are burning effigies of the leader of my faith. My faith has been insulted by them. I demand that they apologise, otherwise it will have to be the duty of all my fellow Roman Catholics to send all these non believers to hell. Ridiculous sentiment I know. The pope in an academic speech used the words "I quote" and then the words of a 14th century Byzantine emperor. As a muslim friend once said to me, many of his faith are illiterate, they are incapable of reading their own Qur'an and therefore have to use the teaching and interpretation of others. Those who are most vocal also tend to have an agenda. No educated person could ever have an issue with somebody quoting a known historical source, especially in an academic arena where that statement would be analysed and shown to be the bigoted sentiments of somebody who died 700 years ago. Freedom of speech is a strange thing. We all believe we have it. However where do we draw the lines, should there be lines. New rules about Incitement to Religious Hatred should mean a prosecution of any muslim who in the UK protests in a similar violent anti catholic manner to that we have seen on recent TV . I guess that whilst the rules were conceived as pro muslim when envisaged, that they will not be enforced by the politically correct upholders of the nations law. Similarly is it right that academics can be prosecuted for "Holocost Denial" simply because they have a personal belief and talk about it I despite my reputation on this forum am a tolerant man. I know words cannot hurt me. I respect your rights to say what you believe and expect you to listen to my counter argument. If I don't like your message I always have the option of not listening. It is about time the whole world grew up and learnt to live in harmony with each other __________________ Not Grumpy, opinionated.

15-09-06, 09:10 PM	#3
Flamin_Squirrel Guest Posts: n/a	It amuses me that whenever someone accuses Muslims of being a bunch of violent savages, they immediately become a bunch of violent savages.

15-09-06, 09:17 PM	#5
philipMac Guest Posts: n/a	Pot. Kettle. Black. Bag of sweeties and a dirty trenchcoat anyone? Hallloo little boy At least the Spanish Inquisition made for a good Monty Python sketch. And that whole backing the Nazis bit. Just a misunderstanding. Right? The list goes on. The Pope, and the Catholic Church Big wigs can **ck off, as far as I am concerned.

15-09-06, 10:13 PM	#8
MilleonAir Guest Posts: n/a	He's just sore 'cos people wouldn't hire him as a babysitter! Ian

16-09-06, 12:06 PM	#10
Cronos Guest Posts: n/a	As always there are sections of society who will take a quote or element from a broader statement and seek to sensationalise it. It would appear that that is exactly what's happened here and the feeble minded and those with an agenda have jumped on the condemnation bandwagon. I bet the vast majority of those condemning the pope have not read or heard the entire transcript. I confess that I have also not read the full transcript. But let's not pretend this is a particular trait of moslems or indeed any other faith. Intolerance and ignorance are no strangers to religions and every faith has it's share of fundamentalists looking to create and profit from divisions.