Victoria's Empire

[Stingo]

Anybody watch it? Was on the telly tonight. I found it quite informative and well presented...interest was maintained throughout. Made me wonder what on earth the history teachers were teaching us when I went to school. The more I learn/read about the 'British Empire', the more embarrassed and uncomfortable I feel about being British. Confusing I know, worrying, definately. What on earth were our forefathers thinking of? Their bank accounts I suppose. It's no wonder no-one likes us...much.

why would you feel bad about what happened 150 odd years ago? learn by history but dont let it ruin your life.

i am more embarrased to be English nowadays, this country has gone to rat s*it.

Be proud we had the bigges empire the world has and is ever likly to see.

There is nothig to feel bad about, it happend 100's of years ago anyway and back then it was all acceptable. That is the trouble people judge what happened in the past on todays ethics and morals.

If Britain ahad not done all it had then none of us would be the people we are today.

Including all those people who bang on about the slave trade!! It happened 200+ years ago Get the f**k over it, and if it was not for that then you would not be here now enjoying the life you do!! dont think of that do they?

Its a bit like us harping on to the Italians about appologising for the way the Roman empire treated us and took native Britons to rome as slaves.

[Stingo]

Originally Posted by keithd

why would you feel bad about what happened 150 odd years ago? learn by history but dont let it ruin your life.

Oh don't get me wrong - I'm not about to go and change my citizenship or anything...It's just that for some reason (perhaps it's my naievity) I am always surprised at how economical people are with truth about things, many things actually. I've always admired the empire builders of old, their bravery and determinatuion and all that. But it's not until you scratch below that glossy surface that you discover what really went on...and how many of us, at one time or another, have been fed a load of old ****les & mussels!!


I love my country , I really do...but I often wonder what the bl))dy hell were they all thinking of...and why don't we just give it back or something? Not for all the tea in China...or India!!

[Stingo]

Originally Posted by neio79

i am more embarrased to be English nowadays, this country has gone to rat s*it.

Be proud we had the bigges empire the world has and is ever likly to see.

There is nothig to feel bad about, it happend 100's of years ago anyway and back then it was all acceptable. That is the trouble people judge what happened in the past on todays ethics and morals.

If Britain ahad not done all it had then none of us would be the people we are today.

Including all those people who bang on about the slave trade!! It happened 200+ years ago Get the f**k over it, and if it was not for that then you would not be here now enjoying the life you do!! dont think of that do they?

Its a bit like us harping on to the Italians about appologising for the way the Roman empire treated us and took native Britons to rome as slaves.

Yes - good point that - keep it all in context - trouble is there's a lot of people out there nowadays that don't want to, especially those in 'foreign' places. Ah well, I've got my pastie and chips....

Firstly, its not just us. The Dutch, Spanish, French etc were all as bad - again as recognised the morals and ethics of today simply cant be applied to history. What we see as wrong, people back then really dgas about.

Secondly, how far back should this go? Should we feel aggrieved with the Italians for invading us 2000 years ago? The British Empire is not, like Rome and the Italians, the same as us as British today. Are you the same person you were 20 years ago? I doubt it. Equally, we're not the same country and things would be done differently these days, if at all.

Its a bit like chemistry. When youre younger you need simple explanations like atoms being like the solar system. [facts/figures/dates etc for history]. As you learn more, you build on the knowledge and you can start to incorporate other info into your viewpoint like shells and electrons jumping between them. [so you start to look at why things happened on those dates/times etc]. And then when youre pretty advanced you get to learn about standing waves, electron clouds, probability waves etc [so for history you start to see other viewpoints]. Thats the way education goes.

Pratchett summed it up so neatly in Science of Discworld as "lies to children"

But also bear in mind, that the program you watched isnt the whole picture either. Its not ALL negative, yet we seem to have a national pride in beating ourselves up for what our forefathers done without accepting we did a lot of good too.

I will tell you of the time I was in India. I took a 3 day trip to Hampi and talked a lot with the tourguide. When discussing the history we asked what impact the British had whether it was good/bad etc. As far as he was concerned it was great - we built the railway infrastructure, we built things and left them for the Indians to use when we left. Without that, India would be struggling in his opinion a lot more. So bear in mind history isnt entirely without its own bias either and that things need to be balanced up where they can.

[Stingo]

Ah - thankyou Lynw...a proper treasure ...good analogy.

I think I should adopt a motto stolen from the script of 'Waynes World'...

'Live in the NOW!!'

Stingo, the past is the past you learn from it and move forward, the current trend of apologising for what our ancesters did is too foolish to be credible. Do you apologise at 20 for a window you broke with a football at 6. No its past and should stay there. Again with the people who have something against us for our past. It should all be forgotton and left as what was acceptable at the time.
As for the slave trade It makes me laugh that the British have to apologise for it. the "slaves" were mainly sold to the slavers by other tribes as being defeated enemies or captured woman and Children. The Africans should look to their own for the start of this trade. The Moors were one of the worst traders in slaves and carried on well after it was banned in Britain.

I saw the programme - actually found it quite interesting, and I quite like victoria wood's take on things too.

Now I'm not for one minute saying that the slave trade wasn't an awful thing to have happened. But what strikes me about lots of situations around the world (not specifically the slave trade) is that there are some individuals/nations who have a tendancy to dwell excessively on the past and blame others for their lot in life, and there are others who move on and take responsibility for making the best of things.

I can't imagine that there is a nation who hasn't at some point in the past done some terrible things to another nation. So I believe it's more important to remember what has happened and try and learn lessons from it, while keeping the perspective that we're now living in the present

Originally Posted by lynw

I will tell you of the time I was in India. I took a 3 day trip to Hampi and talked a lot with the tourguide. When discussing the history we asked what impact the British had whether it was good/bad etc. As far as he was concerned it was great - we built the railway infrastructure, we built things and left them for the Indians to use when we left. Without that, India would be struggling in his opinion a lot more. So bear in mind history isnt entirely without its own bias either and that things need to be balanced up where they can.

I found the same in Zimbabwe - spent some time there 6 years ago when they were reclaiming the farms from white landowners & tensions were high. I was acutely aware of my nationality and tbh pretty embarrassed by what Britain had done in the past, but was actually surprised at how many people talked positively about it in terms of the infrastructure, etc that they'd gained.

As a matter of fact, I think you tried to invade us a few hundred years ago, but got your asses delivered to you on a plate by the people of Oporto