Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?

[flymo]

Originally Posted by teriyakimonkey

What I really mean Balky is can the initial input upset the front wheel traction rather than if I counter steer too much will it fall over.

This is common sense really, if you do it violently enough you will fall off yes.

Originally Posted by teriyakimonkey

What I really mean Balky is can the initial input upset the front wheel traction rather than if I counter steer too much will it fall over. I think Essex answered it really. What I don't want to do is try using countersteering more and find the front going.

No, as Balky says, you countesteer to 'turn' the bike, when it's is turned, you stop pushing. The quicker you can countersteer, the faster you will turn in, which has a load of advantages. People get nervous changing position quickly i.e from upright to leaned over . The speed at which you steer doesn't compromise grip as such - you just need to get used to it.

Sounds like the new bike wants to fall in quicker than the SV. So guess what? When you deliberately counter steer, the bike is going past the lean angle for that particular speed Thus it feels like it's falling. In effect, you are over countersteering because you now get more effect than you used to for the same movement.
No need to adjust anything, just don't do it Counterseering should be a sunconscious act. It should be a part of a whole. Not a deliberate act. No need to deliberately over do it.

If you're looking for something new, try steering the bike using the balls of your feet. That's got a great zen like feel. Put more weight on your right foot to countersteer left and vise versa.

Think nuances, not actions. less is more. "Will" it to happen, don't do it.

Cheers, Carl

[Balky001]

Originally Posted by lukemillar

The quicker you can countersteer, the faster you will turn in, which has a load of advantages.

Exactly, if you know how much input you want (i.e how far over you need to go for corner/speed) then its impossible to counter too fast for the bike, maybe for yor reactions though . The trouble most people have is knowing how much input to give for any given circumstance and that takes experience.

I know what you mean about the 675 though, its tall and feels like you are go over a long way quickly, just do the same corners over and over, don't turn in too early, as Luke said, the later you can turn in (even a few feet) you can gain loads of advantages, not just speed but position, braking and observation.

Your on the Silverstone day, I'm sure Blue will be giving free lessons on the paddock

Yeah I am. He he. Just realised I've spelt it wrong in the title. Just been out for a bit. What a waste of time. It's nearly frozen out there. No fun at all.

I'll be watching all the more experienced lot with a keen eye.

I think it's impossible to unstick the tyres in the actual act of initial countersteering, however violent. The front will only steer if it has grip, and the tyres only load up significantly once the bike is actually turning. So no matter how violently you arrive at maximum lean angle, I think it's only once you arrive there and overload the tyres that you could actually go down. If you imagine swerving violently from side to side down a narrow road, it would be at the extreme edge of an arc that the tyres would let go, not as you were leaning it over to make the turn, even if you were fairly brutal with the handlebars.

It's interesting, I love countersteering discussions.

Originally Posted by Berlin

No need to adjust anything, just don't do it Counterseering should be a sunconscious act. It should be a part of a whole. Not a deliberate act. No need to deliberately over do it.

If you're looking for something new, try steering the bike using the balls of your feet. That's got a great zen like feel. Put more weight on your right foot to countersteer left and vise versa.

Think nuances, not actions. less is more. "Will" it to happen, don't do it.

Cheers, Carl

No! Bikes don't just 'fall in' to corners, you have to move the bars! The only way to 'turn' a motorcycle is with the handlebars. No amount of sticking weighting on pegs, hanging off will turn a bike. You may find that doing these this inadvertantly affects your input on the bars, but these actions alone will not turn the bike. Fact! The steeper steering angle on the 675 will mean that it will turn in quicker. Doesn't mean you'll have to push any less (and if you do it will be a negliable amount) just means you'll have to push for less time.

One thing to get straight - everyone countersteers, otherwise you would have a lot of bikers stuck in hedges! The difference is whether you 'actively' do it or 'passively' do. By actively doing it, you are understand the steering process of a motorcycle and by understanding it, you can do it quicker. This is the main advantage of actively countersteering. The ability to turn quickly allows you to turn in later into a corner, which gives advantages with lines and visibility etc.

In answer to the original question: Yes, I guess you can keep on pushing the bars till you either A: Go off the side of the tyres and lowside or B: Tighten you line far too much for the speed you are going that you actually go off the inside of the track!

A is fairly uncommon and B is unheard off!

I really wouldn't worry too much about it. The important thing is to set you lean, for the speed you are doing on a given corner and I'd imagine that 99% of the time, this will not be the bikes/tyres maximum lean angle.

Cheers Luke but I'm not that silly to keep countersteering til I fall over! He he. It was just the initial movement I was curious about really. There's only one thing I weight the pegs for and that's to aid stability on cornering (I weight the outside peg). One of the best things I was ever told.

Where's your bike? Just been on the Triumph forum. Some really helpful nice people on there and some real bags of ****.

Another question: Is it deemed acceptable in trackday circles to hang off the bike while counterbalancing (whilst still going straight) just a bit before a corner to prepare for it rather than shifting off whilst entering the corner? Some tracks I don't bother going back into the seat for the next corner, for all the inch and a bit I manage to get my bum off that is!

Originally Posted by teriyakimonkey

Cheers Luke but I'm not that silly to keep countersteering til I fall over! He he. It was just the initial movement I was curious about really. There's only one thing I weight the pegs for and that's to aid stability on cornering (I weight the outside peg). One of the best things I was ever told.

Where's your bike? Just been on the Triumph forum. Some really helpful nice people on there and some real bags of ****.

Another question: Is it deemed acceptable in trackday circles to hang off the bike while counterbalancing (whilst still going straight) just a bit before a corner to prepare for it rather than shifting off whilst entering the corner? Some tracks I don't bother going back into the seat for the next corner, for all the inch and a bit I manage to get my bum off that is!

Hey dude, Still waiting for flat money - Still looking at the beginning of March for the new bike.

As for the hanging off thing - yes that's cool A lot of guys do that, though on my CSS day, the instructor told me something useful. Coming up to a corner, I would be on the brakes with one knee stuck out and half a cheek off the seat. My instructor told me that while this is ok and a lot of racers do the same, he said you get much better stability under braking if you do this:

-Coming down a start/finish straight tucked in
-Sit up for corner, slide bum half off seat, but keep both your knees gripping the tank under braking
-The when you reach your turn-point, push the outside bar and as the bike starts to drop/turn, only then stick you knee out.

The idea is that you keep gripping the tank until the heavy braking is done - makes everything feel much more stable, but by shifting your bum early, when you turn in, the only part of your position you have to move is you leg to stick your knee out.

Works for me!

Luke, Turn of phrase "Fall in" perhapse "tip in" would be better. I agree that (over a certain speed) you can't turn a bike without counter steering. However, you don't have to turn the bars to countersteer. You *can* do it with weight transfer. A bike is just a hinged set of rotors and has a gyroscopic effect from the two wheels.

If you apply a force (in this case mass) to one side (say right peg) of the bike this hinges the bars and the bike countersteers to the left so it falls (tips) over towards the right. And you *do* have to continue to counter steer when the bike is over to keep it over, however, this is a measured amount baeed on the speed and the angle of lean. If you stop countersteering all together the bike will stand up due to it's gyroscopic effect being realigned. We've all seen riderless bikes on TV contunue down the track after a high side. If you countersteer the other way the bike comes up *quicker*. Going round a right hander on full lean, you will have pressure forwards on the right bar and pressure back on the left bar. When you want to pick the bike up quickly, this is reversed. if the bike is to come up a little slower it is just stopped.

This is how you can still steer your bike when you don't have your hands on the bars. You can make it swerve left and right but you can't hold bike over at 30 degrees with no hands on the bars. You can't keep *applying* load without your hands on the bars.

And it's not the amount of load that's added to the pegs (or side of the tank), its the rate, as you say, at which you apply the load. (equal and opposite effect) If you apply the force slowly, you get a slow effect. If, like pushing someone hard, you add the force quickly you get a quicker effect.You could lean off the bike and this would ahve an effect or you could flick your hips to the side which would have a much quicker effect.

So it's possible to steer a bike by pushing down on the pegs or using your knee on the side of the tank. Granted you can't add the force as fast as physically twisting the bars but for most situations, you never need to. But you will need your handds on the bars to continue the turn. Maybe a chicane would require it but then you'd also be adding foot pressure and side knee pressure too.

I was suggesting that instead of countersteering deliberately, He, try not to and see if he can control the bike in a different way. It leads to much smoother riding.

Cheers, Carl