User yer - bleep - indicators!

Originally Posted by the_lone_wolf

+1

In the car unless you're watching your RVM constantly by the time you glance back to check on the bike and see the indicator he'll have already overtaken you

Check for other traffic overtaking you and get past as quick as possible, bonus points if you get the front wheel up...

But what about the car/bike behind you also contemplating an overtake? Or the one coming the other way?
When I'm in my car I check RVM frequently and often see motorcycles and a signal would help in some situations.

Which is worse, giving a signal which is not seen or not giving a signal which could have been and then suffering the consequences?
Obviously all circumstances are different but in the main I don't agree with copper on this one. What makes them and others think they're experts anyway?

Originally Posted by Daimo

How you can't see a bright flashing dial on your dash confuses me if your paying full attention.


And if the driver notices the headlight coming up behined them, and sees the indicator, they have more notice.

It also makes you more visable to on-coming traffic.


I'd agree moreso in the summer, but it is nighttime now, indicators are VASTLY more visable at night.

I feel the police officer is wrong in this instance...

Still your life, you choose...

I'm with you on this one in the circumstances you mentioned in the OP. There is a similar stretch of hatching along a fast (ie 80+) bit of single caridgeway near Oxford. Quite a number of times I have been overtaking in the dark only to be faced with an oncoming vehicle that was not indicating but had also decided to use the hatching to overtake - bloody scary. In other circumstances I too have been advised to not bother indicating by an advanced diving instructor (taking a mini bus test) but in the case of pulling into the path of (possible) oncoming trafic then it's a no brainer really. I'd use em.

[the_lone_wolf]

Originally Posted by merlin427

But what about the car/bike behind you also contemplating an overtake? Or the one coming the other way?

Play it by ear, I never said you should never indicate

It's obvious if the car/bike behind you is hawking for an overtake, in that case a signal would be a good idea

However if there's a bike in your RVM you shouldn't worry about them, it's up to them to pass safely and there's nothing you can do about it - concentrate on getting past as quickly and safely as possible, car drivers who do unexpected things are worse than those who don't even notice you until you blat past

If there's a vehicle approaching too close you shouldn't be overtaking anyway, if there's a vehicle behind the one approaching looking to overtake they wouldn't see your indicator until you pulled out anyway making it pointless

[Red Herring]

I always consider a signal when planning an overtake, but rarely end up giving one. Indicators are fitted to your bike so that you can give information to other road users about what you intend to do, they are not there to tell someone what you are doing, generally in an overtaking situation your position and speed change does that very nicely.
If you consider the majority of overtaking opportunities it is quite rare that you know you are going to go for the overtake long enough in advance of actually going for it to be able to signal effectively. Put simply you can't signal until you know you are going to go, and if you know you are gong to go then you should have gone! There are some exceptions, for example when leapfrogging in a line of traffic and you are popping off the gaps as they pass, especially if there is another bike following you, or as the OP said another bike oncoming who may be trying to do the same thing the other way, but that's fairly rare.

I try to use my indicators as often as I can. That is to say, when it doesn't hinder my maneuver. If I've got traffic around me, I definitely use them.
I was in the cage last week and saw a biker on a suzuki boulevard (pretty, aren't they?) which I follow for about a mile through town. He did not signal once. Trust me, it was hard as hell to tell when he was about to do something. And I was constantly watching him. He pulled in the gap before me a couple of times without signaling and it was frustrating. I had to brake to not run him over, as I was just accelerating into that gap. Had I not been watching him constantly, I would have surely ran him over. And that's what happens many times.
Relating to those precious milliseconds, it seems to me like it's only a movement of the thumb, so there's nothing wrong with signaling AND starting the maneuver at the same time. It's just a thing of habit I guess.. It did saved me a couple of times when overtaking some car that's about to turn and doesn't indicate it. They don't check their mirrors properly before starting to turn (and they don't signal, otherwise I wouldn't be overtaking), but many glance in their mirrors just as they grab the wheel. The indicators just help them see you better (and what really helps is you paying attention and backing off before they run you over).

Where was this, anyway? It wasn't an SV'er was it?

I passed a few bikes in the central res. on the way to see Spannerman last night- nothing really close though...!

Depends on the curcumstances of which there are hundreds of possibilities.

If it's straight case of commit and blast past in line with RH's post above I won't waste time signalling.

If I've only really been travelling 10mph faster than the car in front, he's not holding me up particularly, there's not that much oncoming traffic and I've plenty time to do the overtake, I'll sit in the cars mirrors with the indicator on for a few seconds, then sail past nice, smooth and progressive. If the driver can't pick up a flashing yellow light in this peripheral vision and take a look in his mirrors as a result, it ain't my fault if he's not expecting me when I come past.

If a vehicle to be overtaken is holding more than one car or bike up I'll always indicate, just so the driver or rider behind knows that I have seen the overtaking opportunity too and that am going for it, so he knows that if he wants to go also, he should plan to follow me not pull out a micro-second before me and try to overtake us both.

Riding in a pack of bikes on a ride-out I'll always indicate for the same reasons as above, there's too many vehicles with the power, potential and will to take advantage of the same overtaking opportunity.

So like I said, hundreds of possible circumstances, and you just have to indicate if you feel it's the right thing to do at the time, no other rider is inside your helmet and your head, knows your bike like you do, knows if you plan to blast past or sail past, and so nobody else can tell you what is right and wrong, it's being safe and being happy with your own judgement that matters.

Originally Posted by andreis

And I was constantly watching him

...and trying to anticipate his next moves, so because he was being a tit, you took control of your environment and made it safe.

Originally Posted by andreis

it did saved me a couple of times when overtaking some car that's about to turn and doesn't indicate it. They don't check their mirrors properly before starting to turn (and they don't signal, otherwise I wouldn't be overtaking), but many glance in their mirrors just as they grab the wheel.

...but you didn't here, if you want to mitigate this risk, don't overtake past a right turn, and in any situation where there is constant threat of a car pulling a right turn, U-turn, or changing lanes such as a residential street with lots of driveways, or when filtering traffic, you just have to be damn careful. I nearly got knocked off in Ashbourne town centre on the Peak district ride-out because I didn't see a car turning right as I filtered past. He didn't check his mirrors or see me either, but I'm the vulnerable one so it's up to me to keep myself safe and make sure he's not going to turn before I pass him and it would have been my fault in my opinion because I didn't see or anticipate his move (I was looking at something on my right). Rideouts cloud your judgement sometimes because you follow the crowd, had I been on my own I probably wouldn't have filtered past him opposite a right turn, without being damn sure he wasn't going to move.

@Ralph: You're definitely right about that last bit. I actually was in an area with many streets intersecting the main. I didn't see there was such a junction coming up (really small street..), so I engaged in overtaking the non-signaling car. When he saw me overtaking, he started honking and signaled. I slowed down and pulled back in. But yes, it was me the one not being careful enough and had he not seen me, he might have turned in my path.. and all the bad things that happen with that.
I try to look for these things, but when I don't see them coming, I can only hope I've done enough to draw attention to my presence. What else is there to say? Never gonna be perfect..

When learning to ride, I was taught not to use my indicators when overtaking on a two lane road. This instructor said it can confuse other road users into thinking you are turning right. He said that your road positioning and the observation over the shoulder should provide more than enough indication of what you are planning to do. This did surprise me, as a car driver I'd always indicated.

So now, the only time I indicate during overtaking is if I think the vehicle in front might be contemplating an overtake themselves because they are being held up (obviously if they are clearly trying to overtake then I won't proceed with the manoeuvre).

I have also found on occasion, indicating causes the car in front to overtake! Either to block you or because that that fact that you are going to overtake means it is safe for them to do it too!