Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?

Originally Posted by Berlin

Luke, Turn of phrase "Fall in" perhapse "tip in" would be better. I agree that (over a certain speed) you can't turn a bike without counter steering. However, you don't have to turn the bars to countersteer. You *can* do it with weight transfer. A bike is just a hinged set of rotors and has a gyroscopic effect from the two wheels.

No you can't do it with weight transfer, it's been tested.

Originally Posted by Flamin_Squirrel

No you can't do it with weight transfer, it's been tested.

here

Originally Posted by gettin2dizzy

here

You see there that it is possible, albeit totally ineffective. The bike does turn a bit. It's simple steering geometry, the same thing behind how letting go of the bars in a corner will make the bike stand up. The only reason why you can't steer effectively just by leaning is that the rider's mass is not sufficient, given it's proximity to the cog, to have any real impact on the bike's stability at speed.
Steering like this, even if you could do it properly, is not countersteering, though. It negates the need for countersteering by moving the weight in another way. At no point will the front wheel point in the opposite direction to the way you are pulling the bike over. How easy would it be to fall off if it did!

(post not directed at g2d)

[Balky001]

I think that's more straffing than turning though. If you bump the wheel out of line by jumping about the bike will change direction but it's not getting the bike to turn - it's like saying the turning circle is 0 if you pick it up and point it the other way

Getting back to the actual question:
The only way is would be overdone, is if by flicking the bike one way, and then quickly the other, the suspension gets unsettled, and you could potentially lose some stability.

Originally Posted by Flamin_Squirrel

No you can't do it with weight transfer, it's been tested.

So you're riding down the road with no hands on the bars and you can weave the bike very successfully back and forth across the lane. How? By magic? You can even turn your bike around bends using weight transfer to counter steer. But your bike has Rake and Trail to try and stop you.

Jumping up and down on the footpeg is applying the force very close to the centre line of the bike in a *downward* direction. Moving your body across the bike and stopping this movement using your knee on the tank is in a sideways direction and *will* make the bike move. This will hinge the bike at the forks and it will make the bike move right. The Bike will them compose itself and strighten up due to the rake and trail above and the gyroscopic effect of the wheels (which makes biking possible in the first place).

In the video clip of the rider jumping on the pedal above, he's also holding the top of the screen effectively cancelling out the effect of what he's doing. Let's see him doing it again without holding on to the screen. Imagine how effective the same action would be if he had a 1 meter long pedal and jumped on the end of that. Much more leverage.

Newtons laws of motion dictate that for every action there is an equal and opposite action. Jumping up and down on the pedal like that will compress the suspension. Swinging your body to the side and stopping hard against the tank with your knee will have a greater action in a different direction. The gyroscopic effect of the wheels is a very strong force so you need to apply a force great enough to overcome it.

The fact that we can weave a bike down the road without touching the bars shows its possible. However we are using an inefficient force to alter the gyroscopic effect. Turning the bars has a much greater effect which, interestingly, is why they are there!

Carl

I've had the pillion on my bike steering it before. (terrifying!)

Monkey, I wonder whether the reason that you can't lean the Daytona any further without feeling like you'll drop it is because you're not going fast enough at that point to need to do so?

TBH on my gixxer I rarely need to drop the bike down further with a conscious push from the bars, as it turns so easily anyway. The only time I've found the need to do so is for fast changes of direction on track. I should imagine your bike would behave in a similar way, unless the suspension's been adjusted.

Incidently, once you've got your tyres warmed up on a dry track, you'd be amazed at how quickly you can throw a bike down for a turn and not lose traction. You can try it out for yourself at the chicane in March!

Originally Posted by Berlin

So you're riding down the road with no hands on the bars and you can weave the bike very successfully back and forth across the lane. How? By magic? You can even turn your bike around bends using weight transfer to counter steer. But your bike has Rake and Trail to try and stop you.

The bars are still moving though. Your weight transfer moves the bars - that is what turns the bike. If you lock the handlebars so that they can't move then you can't turn the bike. At best you can make it veer of course, but that's not going to help you get round corners. The only way to turn a bike is to move the handlebars either by directly acting upon them or indirectly (as in your example).

Originally Posted by Berlin

Jumping up and down on the footpeg is applying the force very close to the centre line of the bike in a *downward* direction. Moving your body across the bike and stopping this movement using your knee on the tank is in a sideways direction and *will* make the bike move. This will hinge the bike at the forks and it will make the bike move right. The Bike will them compose itself and straighten up due to the rake and trail above and the gyroscopic effect of the wheels (which makes biking possible in the first place).

Remember we are talking about 'turning' a bike, not just making it move left or right.

Originally Posted by Berlin

In the video clip of the rider jumping on the pedal above, he's also holding the top of the screen effectively canceling out the effect of what he's doing. Let's see him doing it again without holding on to the screen. Imagine how effective the same action would be if he had a 1 meter long pedal and jumped on the end of that. Much more leverage.

Makes no difference, where he is holding on to - the point is that the handlebars can't move. Maybe this isn't clear in the video, but on that bike, they are locked straight with a secondary (non turning) set and throttle mounted to the screen

Originally Posted by Berlin

Newtons laws of motion dictate that for every action there is an equal and opposite action. Jumping up and down on the pedal like that will compress the suspension. Swinging your body to the side and stopping hard against the tank with your knee will have a greater action in a different direction. The gyroscopic effect of the wheels is a very strong force so you need to apply a force great enough to overcome it.

Throwing your weight around will unsettle the bike, possibly even adjust it's course slightly. However, you can't turn a bike from throwing you weight about. If you think you can, then it's only because shifting you weight is having an affect on the bars!

Originally Posted by Berlin

The fact that we can weave a bike down the road without touching the bars shows its possible. However we are using an inefficient force to alter the gyroscopic effect. Turning the bars has a much greater effect which, interestingly, is why they are there!

Again, the bars are free to move and that is what turns the bike! In the example video, the bars are locked and the rider is using a secondary set of bars mounted to the screen. They could have mounted them to the tank - It doesn't matter. Point is, that If you take the handle bars out of the equation, you can't turn a bike.

Originally Posted by Berlin

Carl

Luke

Originally Posted by Berlin

If you're looking for something new, try steering the bike using the balls of your feet. That's got a great zen like feel. Put more weight on your right foot to countersteer left and vise versa.

I'm a big fan of steering with no hands on the bars and just seeing how my body weight affects the steering. I can get round a gentle 50 degree bend without using my hands, but I am quite a heavy guy.