Front Brake - Rear Brake?

Originally Posted by Baph

Please enlighten me as to how engine braking wears on the clutch any more than normal riding.

The following is an attempt at educational enlightenment... If your post was rhetorical, feel free to skip to the end!

The whole reason engine braking works is that the engine is turning slower than the rear wheel (via the sprockets, chain, crank, transmission, clutch, etc). If you're just downshifting and dumping the clutch, then you're passing those stresses off (mostly) to the chain, transmission, tires, and engine. There's a lot of force on the clutch during this, but not a lot of slippage friction, actually... But if you opt for a more controlled engine braking where you downshift and feather the clutch in a little slower, a lot of those same deceleration energies are expended in the clutch via friction.

Now, the clutch is DESIGNED for friction obviously, it's what it does! But any deceleration done via the engine instead of the brakes runs that energy through the rest of the driveline (expensive parts) vs. the brakepads (relatively cheap, compared to engine parts).

Under "normal" driving you should probably be using front brake, rear brake, and engine braking, so the extra force on the clutch vs. just engine braking is small... But it is there!

[yorkie_chris]

Originally Posted by Dangerous Dave

slow speed filtering, anybody who has tried this will understand, plus the higher revs makes you heard a bit more.

In the dry, well thats mainly to keep the front wheel down on the 750 but it is very handy for high speed tight turns and of course to help straighten up when aiming for an apex on fast approaches.

Whassat then?

[yorkie_chris]

Troy, if you match the revs correctly then the clutch isn't slipping for long at all, there's little stress on the gearbox and no big clunk through the drivetrain.

Oh yeah and a set of friction plates isn't stupidly more expensive than a full set of decent pads.

Originally Posted by Troy

The whole reason engine braking works is that the engine is turning slower than the rear wheel (via the sprockets, chain, crank, transmission, clutch, etc). If you're just downshifting and dumping the clutch, then you're passing those stresses off (mostly) to the chain, transmission, tires, and engine. There's a lot of force on the clutch during this, but not a lot of slippage friction, actually... But if you opt for a more controlled engine braking where you downshift and feather the clutch in a little slower, a lot of those same deceleration energies are expended in the clutch via friction.

Now, the clutch is DESIGNED for friction obviously, it's what it does! But any deceleration done via the engine instead of the brakes runs that energy through the rest of the driveline (expensive parts) vs. the brakepads (relatively cheap, compared to engine parts).

Under "normal" driving you should probably be using front brake, rear brake, and engine braking, so the extra force on the clutch vs. just engine braking is small... But it is there!

I would assume that this is the reason BikeSafe/IAM/RoSPA suggest that engine braking should be used before other forms of braking?

I did BikeSafe yesterday in fact, and covered a good 70 miles through various situations (mostly NSL, but also less than 5mph in town). I rode as per my previous post. EDIT: I've ridden this bike in the same manner (mostly) for the last 36k miles, the only clutch adjustment it's required is the cable due to a little stretching. Still on the original cable/friction plates etc. I'm now on my second full set of brake pads.

As Yorkie_Chris, don't slip the clutch for long (and it's always far less than a second), but more importantly, do it at the right time and there's no noticable extra load placed on anything. That's the good thing about v-twins, buckets of torque, which can be used for engine braking.

Next you'll be chastising me for up (and down) shifting without touching the clutch at all...

Originally Posted by Baph

Next you'll be chastising me for up (and down) shifting without touching the clutch at all...

I know that it doesn't hurt the transmission if done at the right RPMs and speed where things line up, but it just "feels" wrong, like I'm abusing my bike!
...
...
Didn't stop me from doing it yesterday toward the end of a 400 mile ride and a REALLY tired clutch hand though!

Originally Posted by Baph

stuff

Originally Posted by Troy

stuff

+1 to Baph - and I rarely agree with him lol

I ride (in accordance with Roadcraft) in mid revs so that if i need to speed up I'm at a very responsive rev zone, and if i need to slow, a lot can be done just by backing off throttle (which is all engine braking is at the end of the day.)

and a further 2p, I use front and back brakes depending on what I feel the bike doing.

Originally Posted by injury_ian

+1 to Baph - and I rarely agree with him lol

Unfortunately, I'll have to agree with him too. I was assuming he meant more agressive downshifts with lots of clutch vs. just backing off the throttle at mid-range RPMs. And we see what assuming got me...

Originally Posted by yorkie_chris

Whassat then?

Something some copper tried explaining to me one day, went over my head.

Interesting stuff. Thanks to all of you who have written back.

Now back from the Middle East and have been out a couple of times. Have tried using the rear more often but have also found that engine braking helps a lot. It still doesn't feel that comfortable but I am sure with a bit more practise I'll get used to it.

I use engine braking a hell of a lot, but as we probably all know, it spoils you, and I have to consciously make an effort to dab the brakes so following traffic doesn't end me. Specifically when on the M4 and it's full of... cars!

As for brakes, I use back more now, after locking the front :/ caused bad things to happen heh, but always more front.

It's a love hate thing with the engine braking. It's helped me a lot I reckon with saving me from having to brake after going in a little too hot for a corner. But when people are behind, I find it awkward not braking overly brisk when letting off and braking, if you get my meaning.