Lance Armstrong

[gruntygiggles]

Forget what has been and gone and start with a clean slate now.

If it is true, it is disgraceful, but to go and try to sort out the mess and change results would take a huge amount of time and money...money that could be better spent ensuring that drugs testing is better for the future.

[MisterTommyH]

Although it's a bit of a let down because he's been raised to hero status - looking back at how dominant he was it's hard to see how there weren't more questions asked at the time.... despite clean drugs tests. Numbers / Lab results can tell you anything but when that doesn't tie up with what you're seeing with your own eyes there comes a point where 'proof' has to be treated carefully.

There is now a question about whether he could face criminal charges - not for the doping itself, but for perjury when he was questioned about financial irregularities by US agencies.

Tommy, he could indeed face criminal charges for the doping. It is a criminal offense in France.

One thing I would say in defence against the "He was so far out in front" arguement is that he was consistent, he had one off tour, but it was the whole tour, and the main difference here was it was a very hot tour (armstrong loved racing in the rain an misery). If you look at any of the riders found to be doping in that time they were woefully inconsistent. Vinokourov won a stage, was nearly elliminated the day after for being too slow, then won (or came second) the day after that, and was then found with either artificial testoserone, or another man's blood in his system (i forget which exactly, there were a number of bans that year). Same with Oscar peirero (sorry can't spell his name) he had days in the mountains where to totally dominated, and other he was hanging out his a*se. Jan ullrich is a slightly special case, he was banned for taking recreational drugs (cocaine). Bjarne Riis pretty much came form nowhere to win. His prologue was mediocre at best, he lost the first time trial to Indurain, never had a comfortable day in the mountains (hence his nickname) then took big time out of Indurain in the final time trial.

The only high profile case I remember was Michael Rasmussen, who was consistent, he was thrown out for lying about his wheareabouts during the off season, and was therefore not tested properly. He was probably clean at least during the race, hence the consistency. Non-of this inconsistency was there in Armstrong.

If you look back in history to when doping was legal (pre-1967) there was massive inconsistency in some riders. Best known example was Tommy Simpson, who died from doping whilst in Yellow. (not all riders were walking experiments in pharmaceuticals).

Also his (Armstrong's) body shape changed dramatically due to cancer. Look at him in the 2006 tour when he won the stage two days after Fabio Casertelli's death. He was a very heavy set rider, a definite classics racer. (big guy, race hard for a day, right out in front, don't need to worry about recovery). He did have the engine and pedigree to win, but was carrying too much weight to be effective in the mountains. After cancer he lost 15-20 lbs (or kgs) from his natural body frame. He built his body back up after cancer purely to cycle fast. Here he did take steroids, which were legal for sportmen recovering from such illnesses, but illegal without the illness.

Also if you look at Armstrongs career wins, they are all Tour wins, or races as a build up to the tour. The riders he was racing against would have been racing week in week out for months before this, and would continue to do so for a couple of months afterwards. The sport is littered with example of guys who have crashed out in an early race in the season, needed two months to recover, and come to the tour to have an outstanding tour, because they were fresh. I don't know if he ever rode the Giro d'italia, but if he did it was as a domestique for one of his teammates, not for overall victory.

[pookie]

so they want to void the winners over the period ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19927300

On reflection I don't really blame lance or other riders for doping. It seems like it was pandemic over the period and in a way an arms war between the teams. With testing and regulation largely ineffective I guess you had to be in it to win it. And one suspects maybe the best person in it won it. Maybe there should be a drugs amnesty where all those that took part could freely acknowledge their use of banned substances and then work out a clearer picture of what happened.
Step up Mr Armstrong and lead the charge ...

Yes he lied (repeatedly) and yes he cheated (as did everyone else - not that this excuses it).

But we shouldn't forget that despite all this, the man recovered from cancer and EPO/doping and whatever, he is still a champion for what he's done.

I'm not saying he should keep his titles, hell it's pretty damning, even more so that he's been resolute in saying that he never did.

However, as a icon of what can be possible, he's still one of the best in my opinion, and anyone who says otherwise is just kidding themselves.

[Balky001]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Johnson_(sprinter)

For those that are old enough to remember the 80's, this reminds me a bit of the Ben Johnson debacle in the 80's, although luckily that was caughts relatively early and dealt with quickly.

Johnson was a good runner but not a world beater until he was doping up. He took so much limelight way from Carl Lewis and those moments in a athlete's life are short lived. Carl was a great but for a few years looked like Johnson was better. Johnson's excuse? Everyone else was doing it....

If LA was doping for as long as it appears then you don't know just how good he was, its impossible to tell. Of course he was good, but maybe also better at using drugs more effectively, it's impossible to tell. That's the shame of drugs and destroying peoples perceptions. I can understand the temptation, if everyone is doing it, filling up on blood etc, then it's hard to compete and the sport needs to do more. Stripping AL of his titles is a strong statement. If they had done nothing they are weak.

If LA had been a successful politician nobody would be defending him for cheating or over-claiming expense just because everyone else did, you'd want them to pay it back and lose their title. I don't understand why 'successful' sportsman/entertainers are so untouchable in fans' views?

[fizzwheel]

Originally Posted by shonadoll

Well if EVERYONE was doping, level playing field then?

EPO will effect different people in different ways i.e it will raise the red blood cell level in one person more than another even if they get given the same dose of EPO.

So it doesnt really level the playing field.

I read Tyler Hamiltons book whilst I was on holiday and I think Armstrong is guilty as sin. If what Hamilton has said in there is true and I dont see he has any reason to lie about it.

I was in awe of Armstrong for his recovery and for even getting back on his bike again. He was somebody I looked up to. Not anymore, Its disappointing for the sport, but not unexpected.

David Millar's book is also worth a read it charts ( as does Hamiltons book ) the journey from a clean rider to a doper.

Hamilton suggests that Armstrong thought that the world owed him something after his cancer recovery and would do and did do anything that would give him an advantage and allow him to win as he thought it was his right to win.

[maviczap]

My final thought on the matter, whilst I have the up most respect for what Armstrong did for his cancer charity and for surviving cancer, he has profited by millions $ by cheating.

What is important to note is that cycling is trying it's damnedest to clean up it act, with WADA, USADA, UCI and most countries own anti doping squads,having a rigorous testing program, both announced & unannounced.

One little known fact that during Operation Puerto that caught a lot of cheating cyclists (Ulrich, Basso etc etc), there were other clients of the same doctor from tennis & football that have never been bought to book for doping.

Their names were never released, unlike the cyclists.

But imagine a world class tennis player who gets a nice fresh batch of his own blood mid tournament, as part of his recovery program, which would re-energise him for his next matches? They get similar benefits to the endurance & speed athletes.

One of this years Olympic walking athletes was disqualified or prevented from starting this event after abnormalities with his tests, in fact I think it was EPO again.

His doctor?

Dr Ferrari again........................................... nuff said

Originally Posted by fizzwheel

EPO will effect different people in different ways i.e it will raise the red blood cell level in one person more than another even if they get given the same dose of EPO.

So it doesnt really level the playing field.

I read Tyler Hamiltons book whilst I was on holiday and I think Armstrong is guilty as sin. If what Hamilton has said in there is true and I dont see he has any reason to lie about it.

I was in awe of Armstrong for his recovery and for even getting back on his bike again. He was somebody I looked up to. Not anymore, Its disappointing for the sport, but not unexpected.

David Millar's book is also worth a read it charts ( as does Hamiltons book ) the journey from a clean rider to a doper.

Hamilton suggests that Armstrong thought that the world owed him something after his cancer recovery and would do and did do anything that would give him an advantage and allow him to win as he thought it was his right to win.

I can see it would affect different people in different ways, but the stage of cancer he came back from was terminal for most people, he also had hardcore chemo, so what I meant was like levelling the playing field for him.

Ill check that book out, I've read all of lances because am/was such a fan, but at the end of the day if he did, then he KNOWS he won nothing, which will eat him up eventually. Was so upset when I heard.

[fizzwheel]

I read something in the paper this morning, that Armstrong admited to doping before he was diagnosed with Cancer. There's also it would appear to be rumour circulating that his cancer was caused by doping... whether or not there's any truth to it or not I dont know.