Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?

Not really just been doing a bit of reading over at 675.net. most people there go for the pilot powers but a few people have the m3's on as they last longer and have found them more progressive due to the rounder profile.

Originally Posted by northwind

It breaks their clever example, though... CSS have always made a huge point about how only countersteering through the bars can turn a bike, but the demonstration's completely flawed because it actively prevents no-hands steering. All it proves is that you need a steering stem to turn a bike effectively, not that you need to use the bars and countersteer. That always annoyed me, Code's so smug about it but his example's so bent. The results are fair- even though there's alternatives that'll turn a bike other than bar steering, they're impractical- but the demonstration's nothing but a stunt.

And like I say, it can still be done, it's just completely unlike how you would ride a bike.

Northy - you're completely missing the point of the video. I don't think even CSS made it with a 'now prove us wrong' attitude. The point they try to make is just to make people understand what exactly turns a bike i.e input via the handlebars or movement around the headstock in the 'no hands' example (which is essential the same as moving the handlebars). They're idea is that if they can make you understand what makes a bike turn, then you can learn to do it quicker for reason I gave earlier.

It's just a means to learning, that's all.

At the end of the day, countersteering threads are always discussed to death and people still can never seem to agree! I guess whatever works for a rider, works. No right or wrong - everyone is different after all.

Originally Posted by wtdafk

Not really just been doing a bit of reading over at 675.net. most people there go for the pilot powers but a few people have the m3's on as they last longer and have found them more progressive due to the rounder profile.

That's the idea behind the Diablos along with quicker warm up and less temp needed to work properly in road/wet/slow trackday conditions. I asked RatRace on there what he thought and explained where I am with the bike. Have you heard about Diablo Rossos? Look very good but aren't out til the end o March. A lot of the Yanks on there seem to be able to go for whatever tyre they want due to the temperatures over there. I'll have to look up about the M3s.

no not heard of the rossos, will check them out to, i think i have about 100 miles left on the stock ones but i have only done 2.6k miles. diablos were my other option, i have just read somewhere that the diablos are very simalar to the M3's and perelli are the same company as metzler. i hate buying tyres to much choice!

[northwind]

Originally Posted by lukemillar

Northy - you're completely missing the point of the video. I don't think even CSS made it with a 'now prove us wrong' attitude. The point they try to make is just to make people understand what exactly turns a bike i.e input via the handlebars or movement around the headstock in the 'no hands' example (which is essential the same as moving the handlebars). They're idea is that if they can make you understand what makes a bike turn, then you can learn to do it quicker for reason I gave earlier.

Nah, I disagree- here's what the messiah himself has to say on the subject:

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machi...bs-machine.php

"Steering a motorcycle results from the process of pushing the inside bar forward, the same angle and direction the forks rotate in the steering head bearings. You can also pull on the outside bar. You can do both push and pull. That is what turns it, that is all that turns it with any degree of accuracy, efficiency, quickness or smoothness. That and only that, No B.S."

Originally Posted by northwind

Nah, I disagree- here's what the messiah himself has to say on the subject:

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machi...bs-machine.php

"Steering a motorcycle results from the process of pushing the inside bar forward, the same angle and direction the forks rotate in the steering head bearings. You can also pull on the outside bar. You can do both push and pull. That is what turns it, that is all that turns it with any degree of accuracy, efficiency, quickness or smoothness. That and only that, No B.S."

I think that is the key point here!

Erm, he either doesn't understand Counter steering (possible, but incredible) is using a different set of physics (improbable) or is defining countersteering is the part where the bike is being *kept* leant over. You can, catagorically, without doubt *initiate* countersteering with weight transfer (or more correctly, with the rate of weight transfer). But you must have your hands on the bars to *continue* counter steering once the bike is over. No hands on the bars and the rake and trail will bring the bike back to straight. Oh, and he's talking about steering above a certain speed. Below that speed, it's the opposite.

I think someone should email him to ask!


Not me, I'm in Dubai!

Carl

[21QUEST]

I agree with Northwind and Berlin.

Perhaps they only real arguement is, 'steering' the bike in an effective and meaningful way.....

That said, even with all the good stuff he undoubtly has to say, when it comes to riding a bike, the guy can appears to have ....could also argue, has (every so often)his own head in a 'head lock'



Ben

Originally Posted by Berlin

You can, catagorically, without doubt *initiate* countersteering with weight transfer (or more correctly, with the rate of weight transfer).

Obviously forcing the bike to lean to one side will make it turn in that direction, simple steering mechanism mass distribution takes care of that. I can't see how the wheel would ever point in the opposite direction, which is by definition countersteering. Countersteering is a deflection of the pivot point (the contact patch of the tyres) from beneath the centre of gravity, causing the weight to "fall" to one side. There's no way you can do that simply by moving the mass of the rider. No motorcycle steering geometry in the world is set up to steer the opposite way when a force (like a crosswind) acts upon the mass of the machine. It would be lethal.

Well, It's not Lethal. We all do it.
When riding in a strong cross wind, we actually steer the bars so the wheel is pointing very slightly downwind, not into the wind. Riding down a road with a wind from the left, we actually turn the bars so the wheel is pointing towards the centre of the road rather than the curb. The stronger the wind the more we turn it and the more force we must keep applied to the bars to contibue in a straight line.

The pivot point on a bike is the headstock, so if you apply a force to the centre point of the bike the headsock hinges. If you apply force with your knee to the left side of the tank (by having moved your body across and then stopping yourself with the knee against the tank.) the bike will pivot so the front wheel faces left (as the pivot moves right) and the bike will turn in to the right.

Carl
(now in China)