Ban electronic aid's?

Out of curiousity - when was TC first introduced on motoGP bikes? Was it with the introduction of the 800s?

I think there are some interesting points here, but I feel that there are a few things getting confused.

The point being argued is that motoGP is getting dull. However, I don't think that is because of the electronics! There has been some great racing this year, but a few things I have noticed:

Riders are thinking a lot more about the bigger picture and are happy to settle for places (Pedrosa springs to mind) Rossi and Ped have had some great scraps, but I find that often Pedrosa seems to call it a day and bank a safe second instead of risk binning it, chasing the win. You can win a championship with little/no wins as Hayden proved in 2006.

Traction control does limit rear wheel slide on these bikes which is an awesome spectactle! I loved this from 2006:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45R9A...eature=related

but this is showboating! Powersliding out of corners doesn't win races.... whatever the year! Backing it in is different and a sweet technique, but arguable it was going from an 990 -> 800cc capacity that knobbled that! Just look how Nicky Hayden got on with the the 07 bike vs a 125>250>GP progression riders like Rossi, Stoner & Pedrosa where corner speed was key, rather than the point-and-shoot technique.

I don't think the electronics limit close racing. I think that the manufacturers have been developing their 4-strokes for 6/7 years now, whereas in 2002/3 it was a new game. As the years progress, obviously the development between the teams will start to vary, which is why you see manufacturers trading places winning the championship - Honda with early dominance, then Yamaha and now Ducati.

Someone commented earlier that if TC was removed, then the riders would have to brake harder/get on the gas sooner. How does that work? Are they not really 'on it' at the moment? I can guarantee that if a rider could brake later/harder and get on the gas sooner and still make the corner then he would TC or not. Why? because everyone wants to be the fastest!

Originally Posted by lukemillar

Stuff

Someone commented earlier that if TC was removed, then the riders would have to brake harder/get on the gas sooner. How does that work? Are they not really 'on it' at the moment? I can guarantee that if a rider could brake later/harder and get on the gas sooner and still make the corner then he would TC or not. Why? because everyone wants to be the fastest!

I said they will need to brake harder/earlier as the corner speed would probably drop... and that they wouldnt be able to get on the power as early so technique will have a lot more to do with it getting out of the bendy bits. This should alow more overtaking. Not sure who said what you mentioned.

The stuff above could quite be right, maybe with the 800's having less grunt we will se less lighting of the rear, though im not sure about that tbh... they seem to high side quite happily so they can lose traction easily.

People say with no TC it will become dangerous. IMO it would be less dangerous, the crashes atm are much worse when they happen now! What happens is that when the tyres do let go because even the aids cant help the back slides/spins up the TC kicks in the back grips and BAM rider gets air time.

Who knows what would happen with a change in rules... IMO it cant get worse as a specticle.

I was watching MotoGP this morning, last free practise. The main topic of coverstation was indeed the electronics.

The bikes computers are set up to deliver just the right amount of power and traction for each corner of the track each lap. As it goes past start/finish the computer resets and does the same for the next lap.

So it would seem no matter how much twist of the wrist the rider inputs, the computer is actually taking them round the corner. Now I am sure it is not so cut and dry as that, but it's doing a hell of a lot of the riding for them.

As soon as all the teams have the electronics sorted to maximum (such as Ducati) then it is going to be a procession around the track. The only overtaking is likely to be in the first couple of laps and that'll be it.

Originally Posted by ThEGr33k

I said they will need to brake harder/earlier as the corner speed would probably drop... and that they wouldnt be able to get on the power as early so technique will have a lot more to do with it getting out of the bendy bits. This should alow more overtaking. Not sure who said what you mentioned.

The stuff above could quite be right, maybe with the 800's having less grunt we will se less lighting of the rear, though im not sure about that tbh... they seem to high side quite happily so they can lose traction easily.

People say with no TC it will become dangerous. IMO it would be less dangerous, the crashes atm are much worse when they happen now! What happens is that when the tyres do let go because even the aids cant help the back slides/spins up the TC kicks in the back grips and BAM rider gets air time.

Who knows what would happen with a change in rules... IMO it cant get worse as a specticle.

I don't think corner speeds would drop without TC - remember TC works on corner exit - most riders will trail brake to an a apex, so mid corner speeds would be similar - It just affects the way the get on the gas. That was why I asked when TC was introduced, because I think a lot of what is described isn't necessarily solely TC, but also related to the capacity change, which altered the way riders were able to ride the bike. Remember - even in the 'good ol' days' riders still didn't overtake on the gas! Yes, if they got good drive and into the next corner or onto straight, but never/rarely on the corner exit - the bikes are just too evenly matched on power, regardless of electronics.

Originally Posted by lukemillar

I don't think corner speeds would drop without TC - remember TC works on corner exit - most riders will trail brake to an a apex, so mid corner speeds would be similar - It just affects the way the get on the gas. That was why I asked when TC was introduced, because I think a lot of what is described isn't necessarily solely TC, but also related to the capacity change, which altered the way riders were able to ride the bike. Remember - even in the 'good ol' days' riders still didn't overtake on the gas! Yes, if they got good drive and into the next corner or onto straight, but never/rarely on the corner exit - the bikes are just too evenly matched on power, regardless of electronics.

Ah but in days before traction control the entry into a corner was far far more important than it is now. Got it wrong going in and you were no where coming out. Now with traction control taking over exiting a corner in has nowhere near the same impact. Go in too deep or cut the apex to early and it's the same way out. Twist the wrist to full and let the traction control get you out. Do that before traction control was introduced and you'd be off as quick as your wrist moved.

I think this conversation is only ever going to go round in circles from now on.

Originally Posted by BigApe

Ah but in days before traction control the entry into a corner was far far more important than it is now. Got it wrong going in and you were no where coming out. Now with traction control taking over exiting a corner in has nowhere near the same impact. Go in too deep or cut the apex to early and it's the same way out. Twist the wrist to full and let the traction control get you out. Do that before traction control was introduced and you'd be off as quick as your wrist moved.

I think this conversation is only ever going to go round in circles from now on.

I don't think that's true at all. A mistake into a corner affects how quickly you get around and out of it, TC will not somehow repair an error. Even if you can just crack the throttle wide open, you would still have been able to do it much earlier had you not made the mistake. If anything corner entry is more important than ever at the moment, but that's only the precise nature of the 800s, and nothing to do with electronics.

I think both Toselands and Rossis accidents show that the back wheel can come round if asked.

I think what TC does is allow power to come in as the the tyre gets grip. Not with a bang but a more linear progression. I don't think it is a blank cheque to open the throttle.

Look at Lorenzos accident too...strangely all these accident were Yamahas!!!

We should praise Stoner more and trcation control less.

OK when I said traction control I should have said electronic aids. As the computer does far more than just stop the rear wheel from spinning.

I personnally think that Ducatis TC is far more sorted than anyone elses. We were at Craners this year and the only bike to wobble through CRaners was Stoners and yet he appeared to be doing no manual throttle control. Then in the last wet race, when stoner was being chased by Chris V. both through the same corner stoners bike is wobbling like crazy and yet he keeps the throttle open, Chris has the same and has to slam it shut to stay on the bike. Stoner can only ride what is put under him and he has great skill but I beleive that stoner is getting all this time because he doesnt have to control the throttle through the corners and Ducati have the best electronics.

Originally Posted by Rog

I personnally think that Ducatis TC is far more sorted than anyone elses. We were at Craners this year and the only bike to wobble through CRaners was Stoners and yet he appeared to be doing no manual throttle control. Then in the last wet race, when stoner was being chased by Chris V. both through the same corner stoners bike is wobbling like crazy and yet he keeps the throttle open, Chris has the same and has to slam it shut to stay on the bike. Stoner can only ride what is put under him and he has great skill but I beleive that stoner is getting all this time because he doesnt have to control the throttle through the corners and Ducati have the best electronics.

Wouldn't that mean the Ducati is one of the easiest bikes to ride and therefore adapt to? Something which is obviously not the case. I bet Ducati management would have loved to be able to get Marco up there just by telling him to open the throttle and let the electronics figure it out.

Hodgson summed it all up (TC/Stoner/Ducati/Tyres) pretty nicely during GP qualifying last night.

@BigApe, you're right they do (although Traction Control is probably the most significant after general engine mapping), but nothing the electronics can do will make up for a mistake by the rider.