What was he doing wrong???

[punyXpress]

[quote=MiniMatt;1857488]Glad to suprise I figure the hallmark of a liberal society is a populace which is policed fairly

Pensions, I'm inclined to agree with you, if only out of respect for the process of law rather than respect for the individual - Fred Goodwin is legally entitled to his pension and he'd argue he worked for it. Both leave a bitter taste in my mouth but the law works best when applied equally even though that may result in individual injustices. I only hope that the law is applied equally in this case.

He worked so darned hard for his pension that he didn't bother doing his day job !
For which he was paid... HOW MUCH ?

It amazes me that a statement was released saying that the police had contact with him only after he was on the ground. There were many officers present and they chose to keep silent. It was only after the footage came out of the incident that the police man came forward.

Totally distgusting behaviour of the officer involved and the other officers that saw it happen.

Originally Posted by SoulKiss

I saw the video on the news this morning.

Its Murder as far as I am concerned - he was in effect "mugged" by the Cop that did it.

The force the cop hit him with must have been huge, the cop seems to have to stagger to catch his balance.

Nothing to do with the protesters however, just good old fashioned Police Brutality, the Police should be taking circumstances into consideration even in the middle of a melee, which this was not.

i've not read the rest of the 10 pages, maybe i ought to, but i have to reply to this!

utter complete and total tosh SK!

the guy was in the wrong place at the wrong time, thats no to say the polis man can escape charges under the banner of "just doing his job" because he's pushed the guy and certainly there's evidence it was with more force than necessary. but murder is premeditated yeah? the copper thought "im going to push this man so hard im going to kill him.." no, not a chance, it wont stand up in court nor will it get further than the CPS, they'll throw that charge out immediately should it be pressed.

if thats all already been said in the previous pages i apologise.

right, i;m off to start a long weekend thread.....

Warning: Off topic

[quote=punyXpress;1858458]

Originally Posted by MiniMatt

Fred Goodwin is legally entitled to his pension and he'd argue he worked for it.

Could argue that as the bank has failed & been nationalized he should be entitled to the same government payout as anyone else whose company has gone tits up.

[punyXpress]

Derail :
Solution to Goodwin's ill-gotten gains :
Friday, make RBS bankrupt.
Monday, restart RBS, clear of debts, especially this one.
Job jobbed.

ACCOUNTABILITY! This is the main difference between a democracy and a fascist state. In this instance the actions of a particular policeman were found to be totally unacceptable and he now has to be held accountable. Above all, I feel so sorry for the dead man's wife and kids.

There is an old saying that goes something like, "war is too important an issue to be left solely for generals to decide." Equally, I think that, "the law is too important an issue to be left for the police to decide."

Originally Posted by gruntygiggles

Has anyone else seen the video that is being shown on the news today showing Ian Tomlinson being pushed by a policeman during last weeks G20 summit?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7989027.stm

You cannot blame the police in a situation of unrest and violence like they had to face last week for being preemptive when confronted by a protestor that is not acting passively.

However, if you watch this video, Ian Tomlinson ws walking past the poilce casually with his hands in his pockets and a policeman came at him from behind, hit his legs with his baton and then used his body to shove him to the floor.

While it's all very well to get on a soap box and call the man an innocent bystander, it's worth looking again at the footage and noting that he was acting in a contemptuous manner and with no respect for the officers asking him to move along. Casually strolling along with hands in pockets slowing proceedings down and ensuring that a maximum number of officers are tied up dealing with one foolish man is not big or clever. It angers the coppers and predictably, one of them shoved him along. It was a high pressure situation for the police involved, and understandably their tempers get a bit frayed when they have to deal with disrespectful idiots on top of the rioters and protesters. Besides, he only fell to the ground, not something I'd have thought would bring on a heart attack.

If he honestly knew he had heart troubles then what the hell was he doing there in the first place. It's high time people took responsibility for their own actions, and in his case his actions caused his own death. While I can feel sorry for his family in their loss, I have no sympathy for Ian Tomlinson, he brought all of it on himself.

Tbh, he was lucky I'm not a copper who was on duty there, cos he'd have got a baton blow across the back of his head far earlier.

[yorkie_chris]

So you're saying walking along and being a bit of a tit is a good excuse to clobber someone with a big stick?

What you expect him to do? Run into the cordoned area?

[Biker Biggles]

Leaving aside the obvious stuff,most of which has been said,a little point about heart attacks.
Most heart attacks are not the stereotype sudden explosion in the chest and drop dead instantly type,but come on over several hours with the victim feeling increacingly unwell, maybe nauseous and sweaty,and with pain or discomfort in the chest.This bloke was a few minutes away from dying at the time the vid was shot,and probably couldnt walk any faster and probably was desperately trying to work out what was wrong with himself.Knocking him down with a baton wont have actually killed him,that was happening already,but it certainly wasnt the best treatment available for his problem.

[gruntygiggles]

Originally Posted by Lozzo

While it's all very well to get on a soap box and call the man an innocent bystander, it's worth looking again at the footage and noting that he was acting in a contemptuous manner and with no respect for the officers asking him to move along. Casually strolling along with hands in pockets slowing proceedings down and ensuring that a maximum number of officers are tied up dealing with one foolish man is not big or clever. It angers the coppers and predictably, one of them shoved him along. It was a high pressure situation for the police involved, and understandably their tempers get a bit frayed when they have to deal with disrespectful idiots on top of the rioters and protesters. Besides, he only fell to the ground, not something I'd have thought would bring on a heart attack.

If he honestly knew he had heart troubles then what the hell was he doing there in the first place. It's high time people took responsibility for their own actions, and in his case his actions caused his own death. While I can feel sorry for his family in their loss, I have no sympathy for Ian Tomlinson, he brought all of it on himself.

Tbh, he was lucky I'm not a copper who was on duty there, cos he'd have got a baton blow across the back of his head far earlier.

I would hardly say I was getting on my soap box. I myself defend the police in those situations as I have stated in that OP. However, as I and others have pointed out in earlier posts, the man could well have been unable to move quickly due to ill health, he did not choose to be in the area, he worked there in a newsagents and was on his way home after his shift. In a situation where one side of a street you have protestors and the other side police.....I know I'd rather stick close to the police. I have not made one accusation in this thread that the police man that attacked him caused his death. That is something that can never be proven.

To assume that Ian Tomlinson was being foolish and slowing proceedings down is a little narrow minded IMO. I only say this because I feel it is pointless coming to conclusions like that without the facts. He did not choose to be there, he had his back turned, hands in pockets and no arrest attempts were made. The officer that hit and pushed him was not being blocked at the time, he had to approach Ian Tomlinson from behind to hit him and push him.....hardly a case of "get out of my way".

It doesn't matter what way you look at it, the police officer committed a crime. He used unreasonable force where there was no immediate or percieved danger. Then he lied about it until the video footage came out.

I would not want to be a police officer in that situation and have defended the police through this whole post....but I will not defend the officer that hit and pushed Ian Tomlinson.

Yes, it has become a massive story due to the fact that Mr. Tomlinson later died, but that doesn't mean that it's not a good thing that this officer was found out.

As you say yourself, you have to take responsibility for your own actions and that officer will have to do that now.

EDIT: just be clear so you know i'm not having a go, all I wanted to know what was what Ian Tomlinson did to warrant the officers actions. That is no doubt what the officer will be called into question for and rightly so. He should be upholding the law, not breaking it and that day, he broke it.

If Ian Tomlinson had been waving a knife in his face, I would probably be happy with form of pushing him down and the officer keeping himself and others safe, but that clearly wasn't the case here.