Overtaking in the blackwall tunnel.

i jus like to see everyone happy, it upsets me when you all get shouty.

Here, everyone have a flower...

[Red Herring]

I think there is a difference between getting shouty (as per overlord) and our heated discussion. We at least appear (mostly) to have some respect for the others point of view....

I don't think someone "deserves" to die if they make a mistake, however if they deliberately take an obviously increased risk then they "deserve" the consequence of it.

I know we all think we're really good at filtering and of course we always believe we are in complete control all the time, but sometimes even we can get get it wrong. I personally think that if someone rides with no margin for error it's only a matter of when, not if, they get hurt. The problem is of course that good judgement comes from experience, and experience often involves poor judgement, and the school of hard knocks can be a painful and expensive route to take. Personally I believe that if you want to ride a motorcycle on our roads then you should make the effort to do it properly. By properly I don't mean all daglo, IAM and legal Lozzo, I mean with a degree of knowledge and understanding about what you are doing. Riding a bike on the roads safely has very little to do with turning the handlebars and twisting the throttle, it has everything to do with being in complete control of your surroundings, and that includes leaving room for not just your mistakes but for those of others as well. Filtering through moving traffic in a tight environment leaves very little margin for either, you either need to be very confident in what you are doing, or very ignorant to the risks you are taking.

[rictus01]

Originally Posted by Red Herring

you either need to be very confident in what you are doing, or very ignorant to the risks you are taking.

sorry to truncate your post, but this did remind me of a ride I did with a fairly new ride (won't mention names) but we were on his local roads, that I knew somewhat as well, I lead for the first bit, and he lead on the return leg, when we got back, I was surprisingly impressed with his roadcraft and pace, right up until I mentioned the car pulling out of the side road without stopping could have been nasty, and he answered what car, as he hadn't seen it ....

Anyway, back to the plot.....

Did I miss the bit where anyone pointed out how dumb the car driver must have been to hit the kerb in the first place? Moving to avoid a bike or not, you've gotta be a pretty 5hit driver to hit the kerb in such a way. What if there was no kerb and is was just the tunnel wall, would he have done the same an just slammed into the tunnel wall instead?- Also would this have still been the bikers fault, car drivers got to be taking some responsibilty here.

[Red Herring]

Half the threads on topics like this are all about how stupid some car drivers are, you can hardly be surprised if one does something irrational and daft in front of you now can you?

If a car driver has a crash whilst taking avoiding action rightly or wrongly, whether you like it or not, you're involved. You may have known they didn't have to move, but you need to look at it from their point of view even if that is one of ignorance, and try and allow for it. I'm not saying you are to blame, just that you are involved.

Agreed mate, but involved doesnt mean at fault as you say.

The original post seemed intent on blaming the rider, and even praised the car driver.


You know from my other posts, Im not one for jumping on a bandwaggon. Ill post MY thoughts and my oppinion and if that agrees with someone elses then Ill either see no need to comment or put a +1. Im just shocked no one else posted about the car drivers actions/reactions before page 12.

Originally Posted by Owenski

Did I miss the bit where anyone pointed out how dumb the car driver must have been to hit the kerb in the first place?

You can't really appreciate how tight this tunnel is unless you drive through it. There is very little margin for error and trying to squeeze a bike between two already packed cars is seriously risky business.

Originally Posted by maxinc

You can't really appreciate how tight this tunnel is unless you drive through it. There is very little margin for error and trying to squeeze a bike between two already packed cars is seriously risky business.

Understood and I dont disagree, from the vid posted earier its clearly really narrow.

In honesty, I dont think I'd be filtering it at 30mph the whole way, not everyday, not with those turns and at the bends vehicles practically riding the white lines.
I think though I can relate it to at the moment because on the M62 where roadworks have reduced the lane width turning 2 lanes into 3 (which I'm sure you can all apprechiate makes it quite tight, It leaves literally less than a foot between 2 lorries if side by side in any of the lanes).
On that section, I dont filter the whole thing because of vans/lorries/trucks etc but I will between it if its 2 cars, they generally dont drive so close togther that you cant safely fit between them and I apply the same logic to the tunnel.

I imagine (total speculation admitantly) that the tunnel cant be any narrower than those lanes currently are or nothing bigger than a car would be able to go through. Thats why I agree with Bears initial post that if its car-car then its safe to filter through, if people move over to make it even easier then great (they'd be thanked). If someone is suprised to see a bike in thier mirror and reacts by moving over with enthusiasm an in the process hits the kerb, then again they'd be thanked for moving over but at no point would I feel they were forced/bullied into it, they chose to move.

Looking at it from the other side, when I'm in the car I always move over for bikes simply cos I like it when people do it for me. If I were to move over and hit the kerb, I'd not be cursing the biker I'd be too busy hiding my head in shame at my own poor driving. Perhaps that better explains my ealier point.

I guess I was trying to say that special circumstances (poor lighting, narrow space, fast moving objects in your peripheral vision (tunnel walls) can easily make you loose focus and misjudge your reaction. Adding an extra factor into the mix (filtering biker) could only make it worse.

You don't have to be dumb. It is just an unfortunate set of factors and events waiting to develop into an accident.

Admit i never thought about the lighting aspect, is it pretty poor in there?