Advanced Riding - Progressive or agressive?

Originally Posted by Red Herring

My general advice is that if you have come up behind another vehicle it tends to suggest that your average speed is higher than theirs, so if a safe and appropriate opportunity to pass arises then it would not be unreasonable to expect you to take it. If you don't take it I would be looking more at the reasons you didn't go rather than simply telling you that you should have gone.

When I come up behind another vehicle, perhaps because I was speeding a bit and the other vehicle was a bit below the speed limit. 5 - 10 mph difference in speed, I make a decision about whether I am going to look for an overtake opportunity, or just adjust the average speed I am travelling at.


I often do this and think "well he's just about doing 60mph, it's a 60 limit, I was only doing 5 - 10 mph more than him anyway, so I'm happy enough to sit behind him"

• Saves fuel & wear and tear
• More relaxing, a long A road journey overtaking everything going slower than you, then you arrive 10 minutes earlier, but more stressed and fatigued than if you just went with the flow. I'm a high mileage driver, the more relaxing I can make my journeys, the less stressful my job becomes.
• Reduces risk
• Minimal cost in terms of journey time
• The driver will probably take a different direction in the next 10-20 miles anyway

So those are my reasons, maybe you personally think they are perfectly valid, but what is it that the advanced driving/riding community in general finds so wrong with that exactly? It's called patience and going with the flow.

[Red Herring]

There's nothing wrong with that approach, I frequently like to chill out and knock a bit off the pace, but not what I'm on an advanced test and expected to demonstrate my observation, anticipation and planning skills. It would be no good saying to the examiner, "well I could have done it if i wanted to". They will be examining you on what you did, not on what you wanted to do!

I guess what a good observer needs to say is

"there's nothing wrong with that, not overtaking doesn't mean that you are not of the standard to pass an advanced test, and after you've passed the test you do what you like, but for the purposes of the test you will need to demonstrate in a short space of time that you are capable of seizing overtake opportunities, so you need to practice swift and safe overtakes on your observed rides"

There does seem to be some advanced training going on, where overtakes are seen as mandatory,

Originally Posted by the100thidiot

This did not sit well with him at all as he rides by the police rule of making progress and that any moving vehicle in front is a possible danger thus one should at the earliest opportunity overtake and leave the car well behind. where presumably it no longer constitute a danger. We disagreed on that point as well and as a result i was marked down on that one.

and some riders continue with this mentality after they have passed the test.

Unfortunately its not that black and white. Taking your 56mph example, to stay within the speed limit you only have 4mph to pass the vehicle, assuming 150yds to make a safe overtake that would take well over a minute.
The question then becomes given the road, weather, traffic, visibility would it be safe to be on the wrong side of the road for over a minute given that during that time you would have travelled a mile along said road (unless my math is way off)

This could be a perfectly safe overtake given the right circumstances but then you have to consider the vehicle. if its 64 yearold lady driving to church then you can be fairly sure her speed will not alter, ifi its 2 baseball cap wearing neds in a pimped out corsa you can reasonably expect them to accelerate as you overtake as you would be threatening their manhood. (apologies if stereotypes offend)

To answer the op, the object is to SAFELY make progress. The aim is to equip you with the tools to reach the decision as to which overtake is safe. If an advanced course expects you to adhere to the speed limit (they do) then you cannot be expected to overtake a vehicle doing 56 in a 60 unless the planets align.

For me any advanced training provides you with the tools to apply ideas and practices to your style of riding in a way which hopefully both improves it and increases your safety.

[Stu]

Siting behind a car is putting yourself in conflict with a hazard on the road, you don't know how erratic their driving could become. If you overtake & then sit at 60 mph while the other car continues at 56, then you will be moving away from the hazard at over 100 meters a minute, so after 5 mins you'll be half a km away, I like the sound of that instead of remaining 2 seconds away from them. (If you do the speed limit of 50 while the other car was doing 45 then it would be over 150 meters extra clearance between you per minute)

Originally Posted by G

The point is to remove ALL danger...

Well, I would say minimise all danger - if you want to remove it, stay at home but yes, otherwise I would agree with you.

Originally Posted by -Ralph-

An extra 4mph is about 4 minute saving over a 1 hour ride with an average 60mph speed. Is it that critical?

I would see it completely opposite from you, see my example of having half a km of clearance after just 5 mins.

It's this kind of thing that puts me off advanced training, it's a bit hypocritical sometimes and what one observer/instructor praises you for another one can criticise you.

then pay £400 or whatever it is for California Superbike School or £30/£40 an hour for other professional training, otherwise try to put up with a few inconsistencies as you enjoy your free training, we try our best.

And it's supposed to be about safety, you can't break the speed limit in the exam, but the instructors criticise for failing to make progress in observed rides.

perhaps you should actually go through the training and you'll learn what you can actually get away with on the test

I think you just have to do it with the approach that you take from it the advice that helps you or teaches you something, and ignore the stuff you don't agree with.

that's your choice but if you choose to ignore the stuff you don't agree with, then you may not pass your test, or be welcome riding with members of the club, depending what it is you choose to ignore.

I have a friend who has just passed his IAM observers test, and if I do my IAM with anybody it will be him, because I know his personality he will judge each manoeuvre on it's merits and with a dose of realism, rather than apply hard and fast rules for the sake of it.

The only hard and fast rule required by the IAM AFAIK is to think for yourself when you're riding.

Originally Posted by -Ralph-

• The driver will probably take a different direction in the next 10-20 miles anyway

• Personally I couldn't think of anything more stressful than follow someone else I was not with for 20 miles

Originally Posted by -Ralph-

I guess what a good observer needs to say is
... and after you've passed the test you do what you like,

A good observer would never say that, they and the IAM if you become a member would always like you to ride to the standard

but for the purposes of the test you will need to demonstrate in a short space of time that you are capable of seizing overtake opportunities, so you need to practice swift and safe overtakes on your observed rides"

Yes that bit is right

[Stu]

Sorry J. I did want to answer your original qu. instead of getting carried away with the other replies.
The first thing to note is that speedos are inaccurate, so you need to learn what your own is like so that you can truly know what you are allowed. So compare with a sat nav if possible, or other bikes if they have been able to asses how accurate theirs are.
Of course speed limits are a limit and not a target and they do not need to be achieved unless conditions allow, but if conditions do allow, then yes as an advanced rider, you will be expected to demonstrate that you are capable of riding up to the speed limits, and that will generally mean you need to make progress.
If you cross the line (wherever that line is) and start riding aggressively then I wouldn't expect you to pass the IAM test while doing so.

HTH or let me know

I'm with Ginger. If the vehicle is doing 'just' under a 60 speed limit and I was going to overtake I would prob end up doing 70 at the end because I like to spend the least amount of time as possible in the opposite lane. If the circumstances allow me the end up doing 70, or if I'm on a 'spirited' ride, then I'll happily go for it. However if I'm in no rush, or the weather/traffic/presence of police mean that it's not a good idea then I'll back off. I don't see the need to overtake something because its in front of me.
I use the same policy with filtering, especially on the motorway. If the traffics doing 40 or more then I don't bother.

[Red Herring]

An IAM examiner will be looking for safe, smooth and systematic riding with sufficient progress for you to be able to demonstrate your observation, anticipation and planning skills. The IAM's advice is that you will be expected to ride up to the speed limit if conditions and circumstances allow, but they do not expect you to pass their test if you break the limits. Personally I've never known anybody even come close to failing an IAM test for excess speed, generally it is the complete opposite. They are so concerned about making a mistake they slow everything down and the ride completely loses it's edge.

An advanced rider oozes confidence, and that won't come overnight. It's something you really need to work on and the way to do it is to continually assess what you are doing and be constructive in your self criticism. Good luck.

Originally Posted by Stu

but if you choose to ignore the stuff you don't agree with, then you may not pass your test, or be welcome riding with members of the club, depending what it is you choose to ignore

If I were to base it only on what you have written, I'd say that passing an IAM test is not for me then. A little green badge really isn't that important to me, I'd only do the course in order to gain something from the training and I'd only do the test in order to get cheaper insurance.

I'm not a sheep and I make my own decisions when riding or driving and always will do, I'm not following a hard and fast rule for the rest of my life because the IAM says I should. I'd follow a rule to get through a test, but if I don't agree with it then after that it's out the window.

Originally Posted by Stu

]Personally I couldn't think of anything more stressful than follow someone else I was not with for 20 miles

I don't see the difference between someone you are with and someone you are not with. If you are on a rideout or following on an observed ride then your happy to sit behind, but if it's a stranger you are not?

Whether or not your happy to sit behind is just a state of mind, and has a lot to do with levels of patience, which appears to change in your case depending upon who is driving the vehicle in front.

I never find driving or riding "stressful" per se, unless someone starts road raging on me, but there are more and less relaxed journeys. The only time sitting behind somebody has me "stressed" (although stressed is too strong a word), is if I want to overtake them and there is no opportunity to do so for a considerable distance. If I don't want to overtake them, sitting behind them causes me no stress at all.

I'll be happy sitting behind them if I feel they are travelling at an appropriate speed for the road, conditions and speed limit.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by -Ralph-

If I were to base it only on what you have written, I'd say that passing an IAM test is not for me then. A little green badge really isn't that important to me,

me either, I would never display it. But I love my IAM group.

I'd only do the course in order to gain something from the training and I'd only do the test in order to get cheaper insurance.

I'm not a sheep and I make my own decisions when riding or driving and always will do, I'm not following a hard and fast rule for the rest of by life because the IAM says I should. I'd follow a rule to get through a test, but if I don't agree with it then after that it's out the window.

As I said eleswhere I think, the only hard and fast rule required by the IAM is to think for yourself, I'd be very grateful if someone could point out any other IAM rule that must be strictly adhered to.

I don't see the difference between someone you are with and someone you are not with. If you are on a rideout or following on an observed ride then your happy to sit behind, but if it's a stranger you are not?

Say a short rideout, then generally I would be marking junctions & moving about in the group, on a cross continent rideout then I will accept that I will have to sit behind another person on the rideout for a considerable period of time. Otherwise, on my own I will only be behind another vehicle if I have caught up to it (as RH said) so I would want to overtake it and carry on at my choosen speed not theirs. Alternatively, they have caught up with me, overtaken me & then slowed down to my speed I would not want to be around such an irrational driver, so would adjust my speed to get away from them.

Whether or not your happy to sit behind is just a state of mind, and has a lot to do with levels of patience, which appears to change in your case depending upon who is driving the vehicle in front.

I never find driving or riding "stressful" per se, unless someone starts road raging on me, but there are more and less relaxed journeys. The only time sitting behind somebody has me "stressed" (although stressed is too strong a word), is if I want to overtake them and there is no opportunity to do so for a considerable distance.

Likewise, I never get stressed riding a bike, I would get annoyed in a car not being able to overtake or filter.