R6 shock made to fit a curvy? - Page 2 - SV650.org

13-01-07, 11:20 AM

Put it this way, as somone who makes a living out of shocks and knows alot about them..recommended it isnt and yes valving is important

..cant say anymore than that!

13-01-07, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SV650Racer

Put it this way, as somone who makes a living out of shocks and knows alot about them..recommended it isnt and yes valving is important

..cant say anymore than that!

I bow to your superior knowledge over my theorising, but can you please spend a few moments to educate me why it is different?? (After making a few presumptions over length and stroke being the same obviously).

I am sure the internals will be of a different configuration, no doubt, but presuming the damping, stroke and spring are well matched for original bike, how would this not work on a bike demanding the same stroke (but wanting a stiffer spring due to rider/bike weight).

Its obvious that you can't stick a stiffer spring on a shock and leave the damping the same, but swapping a perfectly matched/better design shock from a different bike as a unit (again presuming length and stroke are ok) and presuming it will physically fit I just can't see the problem?!?!?

At the end of the day my ZX636 shock works a treat ... that is set up round its 9.7kg spring ... although now on a totally different bike ... the damping curve is fine as it is set about that spring and stroke ....

Not causing argument here, I really want to be enlightened!!

yeah, like I said, I am prolly gonna do the ZX shock option as not only is it hassle to do, but if it does fail .... well for the sake of ~£50 for a ZX636 shock, it just ain't worth it is it!!

13-01-07, 02:06 PM

Ran through this with Steve and he said you would never weld it strong enough to stand all the torsional stresses, he said if you do, go ahead but if it snaps which is likely it wont just drop off the rod..he chuckled a bit then said ok just dont go into what could happen its just a no go idea.

You have to take into account with a shock thats made for a certain bike the linkage rates and swingarm length which produce different leverage effects on the shock which is then valved for to take these factors into account. Also the shock for the R6 is valved for a faster bike which loads spring differently due to the swingarm and tie bar lengths. In fact you would want a lighter spring to account for this.

If it worked well then why dont Ohlins make a generic fitment shock or why dont any minitwin racers on a budget use a GSXR or ZX6 one?.

If you want to change one on the cheap then at least go for one that fits. Or foresake a few days on track for one that will work for your bike.

being a racer i know which option id go for...the one that helps me to make the most from my bike and make alot more than a few tenths. Having ridden a bike with a ZX6 shock i assure you one built for the job is worthy of a year trying to make tenths

13-01-07, 02:41 PM

Think I am convinced that trying to convert the end of the R6 shock is a no-go from a risk point of view

… but I had kinda suspected that from the start.

But I am still not convinced about the using a shock from another bike means the damping will be mismatched thing … I see what you are saying about weights, leverages and speeds etc, but I point you back at my thoughts above.

… the damping is set up to match the spring and stroke ... the ratios or weights of bike used to push it and the maths originally done for that bike are irrelevant as that is the spring and stroke the damping is there to compensate for, simple as that!! i.e. If I want to move a shock 10cm in 1 second, it matters none if I do it by applying a large force to a small lever over a small distance, or a smaller force on a larger leaver over a longer distance (but the same time from start of movement to end and the same distance at the shock) ... all the shock knows about is the force applied to it over the duration it is applied ... surely!?!!??!

As long as the shock is of the correct stroke and damping was matched for its spring, and the spring is of appropriate weight for the new bike, I don’t see how the application matters.

If it worked well then why dont Ohlins make a generic fitment shock or why dont any minitwin racers on a budget use a GSXR or ZX6 one?. – er they do don’t they???

being a racer i know which option id go for...the one that helps me to make the most from my bike and make alot more than a few tenths. Having ridden a bike with a ZX6 shock i assure you one built for the job is worthy of a year trying to make tenths – That’s the whole point, I am not trying to find the last few tenths

I have raced bikes too (actually raced Steve in powerbikes a few years back (and beet him

)), and I know how hard it is to get them last few tenths off and that is when modding the bike matters. If I was serious about racing the SV, I’d splash out, but I am not sure I can justify it for just a round or two and the ZX shock is ample for trackdaying.

northwind · 13-01-07, 03:08 PM

Blue... I've got a WP 2-way shock hanging in the garage for a curvy, that's not going to be used for the forseeable future. It's in a bit of a state so personally I'd want to get it rebuilt before using it- nothing unsafe but the condition implies it's well past a service. I don't want to sell it but maybe we could come to some arrangement where you get the use of it in return for getting it serviced- dependant on the cost of the rebuild some money could go in one direction or another, I suspect in yours really

northwind · 13-01-07, 03:11 PM

Oh aye, and the old 636's KYB's shock has the problem that even though you're fitting it to a similiar application, the valving was ****ed in the original bike so it's ****ed in an SV

The newer Showa out of an 05 or 06 is said to be far better, though I've no direct experience of it. I spoke to a couple of 636 owners at a trackday a while back who found the idea of fitting their shocks as an upgrade quite hilarious...

13-01-07, 03:22 PM

No minitwin racers i know use a shock from another bike, they all use either an Ohlins unit or similar!

There are a few that use a stock unit though..and one to great effect!..crazy sausage that he is..no one passes him as he is always too wobbly and wide to do so!

northwind · 13-01-07, 03:27 PM

I know there used to be some guys running with SRAD rears but I'm not remotely in touch with what gets done now. Didn't Wingnut have a 636 shock in the shiny NRP bike?

13-01-07, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by northwind

I know there used to be some guys running with SRAD rears but I'm not remotely in touch with what gets done now. Didn't Wingnut have a 636 shock in the shiny NRP bike?

Not for long, he went the Ohlins route almost straight away...

Blue - oh yes steve rode a one off in powerbikes in 2002 on a blade - god that bike was awful. After blowing its clutch apart and eating its gearbox at that meeting it was soon sold on!. He wasnt very quick on that at all..that model blade was hardly ever seen racing..for a few reasons why we now know!! he then saw sense and got a minitwin!

and then had a relapse again last year but at least he bought a Suzuki this time for the bigger stuff..

northwind · 13-01-07, 05:10 PM

Ah, but he did for a while- I win

(no, not really, it's food for your argument, but never let the facts get in the way...)

Personalyl unless I weighed 60 kilos I'd rather run a SRAD shock than a stock one for anything. But it's all about returns on investment. You can get a SRD Showa in decent nick for £30, but the cheapest you'll find an Ohlins or Penske for used is knocking on 10 times that- and there's still no guarantee that it'll be right for you without a further rebuild. Or you can buy new for... What's your price? £400 and a bit? The question is, is the Ohlins 13 times better than the Showa? Is the Showa £30 better than the SV shock. And only you know the answer when it's your money

People always talk about rebuilding GSXR ones, but the only company that ever made a big business out of that turned out to be total frauds, which tells you something. You can do it, it's just not worth it, since the price of a good rebuild puts you into full aftermarket ranges.

13-01-07, 03:08 PM	#15
northwind Moderator Mega Poster Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In the garage where I belong Posts: 17,083	Blue... I've got a WP 2-way shock hanging in the garage for a curvy, that's not going to be used for the forseeable future. It's in a bit of a state so personally I'd want to get it rebuilt before using it- nothing unsafe but the condition implies it's well past a service. I don't want to sell it but maybe we could come to some arrangement where you get the use of it in return for getting it serviced- dependant on the cost of the rebuild some money could go in one direction or another, I suspect in yours really __________________ "We are the angry mob, we read the papers every day We like what we like, we hate what we hate But we're oh so easily swayed"

13-01-07, 03:11 PM	#16
northwind Moderator Mega Poster Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In the garage where I belong Posts: 17,083	Oh aye, and the old 636's KYB's shock has the problem that even though you're fitting it to a similiar application, the valving was **ed in the original bike so it's **ed in an SV The newer Showa out of an 05 or 06 is said to be far better, though I've no direct experience of it. I spoke to a couple of 636 owners at a trackday a while back who found the idea of fitting their shocks as an upgrade quite hilarious... __________________ "We are the angry mob, we read the papers every day We like what we like, we hate what we hate But we're oh so easily swayed"

13-01-07, 03:27 PM	#18
northwind Moderator Mega Poster Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In the garage where I belong Posts: 17,083	I know there used to be some guys running with SRAD rears but I'm not remotely in touch with what gets done now. Didn't Wingnut have a 636 shock in the shiny NRP bike? __________________ "We are the angry mob, we read the papers every day We like what we like, we hate what we hate But we're oh so easily swayed"

13-01-07, 05:10 PM	#20
northwind Moderator Mega Poster Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In the garage where I belong Posts: 17,083	Ah, but he did for a while- I win (no, not really, it's food for your argument, but never let the facts get in the way...) Personalyl unless I weighed 60 kilos I'd rather run a SRAD shock than a stock one for anything. But it's all about returns on investment. You can get a SRD Showa in decent nick for £30, but the cheapest you'll find an Ohlins or Penske for used is knocking on 10 times that- and there's still no guarantee that it'll be right for you without a further rebuild. Or you can buy new for... What's your price? £400 and a bit? The question is, is the Ohlins 13 times better than the Showa? Is the Showa £30 better than the SV shock. And only you know the answer when it's your money People always talk about rebuilding GSXR ones, but the only company that ever made a big business out of that turned out to be total frauds, which tells you something. You can do it, it's just not worth it, since the price of a good rebuild puts you into full aftermarket ranges. __________________ "We are the angry mob, we read the papers every day We like what we like, we hate what we hate But we're oh so easily swayed"

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13-01-07, 11:20 AM	#11
SV650Racer Guest Posts: n/a	Put it this way, as somone who makes a living out of shocks and knows alot about them..recommended it isnt and yes valving is important ..cant say anymore than that!

13-01-07, 02:06 PM	#13
SV650Racer Guest Posts: n/a	Ran through this with Steve and he said you would never weld it strong enough to stand all the torsional stresses, he said if you do, go ahead but if it snaps which is likely it wont just drop off the rod..he chuckled a bit then said ok just dont go into what could happen its just a no go idea. You have to take into account with a shock thats made for a certain bike the linkage rates and swingarm length which produce different leverage effects on the shock which is then valved for to take these factors into account. Also the shock for the R6 is valved for a faster bike which loads spring differently due to the swingarm and tie bar lengths. In fact you would want a lighter spring to account for this. If it worked well then why dont Ohlins make a generic fitment shock or why dont any minitwin racers on a budget use a GSXR or ZX6 one?. If you want to change one on the cheap then at least go for one that fits. Or foresake a few days on track for one that will work for your bike. being a racer i know which option id go for...the one that helps me to make the most from my bike and make alot more than a few tenths. Having ridden a bike with a ZX6 shock i assure you one built for the job is worthy of a year trying to make tenths

13-01-07, 02:41 PM	#14
Blue_SV650S Guest Posts: n/a	Think I am convinced that trying to convert the end of the R6 shock is a no-go from a risk point of view … but I had kinda suspected that from the start. But I am still not convinced about the using a shock from another bike means the damping will be mismatched thing … I see what you are saying about weights, leverages and speeds etc, but I point you back at my thoughts above. … the damping is set up to match the spring and stroke ... the ratios or weights of bike used to push it and the maths originally done for that bike are irrelevant as that is the spring and stroke the damping is there to compensate for, simple as that!! i.e. If I want to move a shock 10cm in 1 second, it matters none if I do it by applying a large force to a small lever over a small distance, or a smaller force on a larger leaver over a longer distance (but the same time from start of movement to end and the same distance at the shock) ... all the shock knows about is the force applied to it over the duration it is applied ... surely!?!!??! As long as the shock is of the correct stroke and damping was matched for its spring, and the spring is of appropriate weight for the new bike, I don’t see how the application matters. If it worked well then why dont Ohlins make a generic fitment shock or why dont any minitwin racers on a budget use a GSXR or ZX6 one?. – er they do don’t they??? being a racer i know which option id go for...the one that helps me to make the most from my bike and make alot more than a few tenths. Having ridden a bike with a ZX6 shock i assure you one built for the job is worthy of a year trying to make tenths – That’s the whole point, I am not trying to find the last few tenths I have raced bikes too (actually raced Steve in powerbikes a few years back (and beet him )), and I know how hard it is to get them last few tenths off and that is when modding the bike matters. If I was serious about racing the SV, I’d splash out, but I am not sure I can justify it for just a round or two and the ZX shock is ample for trackdaying.

13-01-07, 03:22 PM	#17
SV650Racer Guest Posts: n/a	No minitwin racers i know use a shock from another bike, they all use either an Ohlins unit or similar! There are a few that use a stock unit though..and one to great effect!..crazy sausage that he is..no one passes him as he is always too wobbly and wide to do so!