The Org Scottish Referendum

[Bibio]

yes Scotland will have no currency, yes Scotland will have no financial status in fact Scotland will have nothing and surprise surprise that's because it will be a new country. everything is uncertain for Scotland's future its true and you would have to be a complete idiot not to see that.

i really dont see why the English are getting so upset about the Scottish referendum unless they have something to loose so please enlighten me what difference is it going to make to the rest of the UK if Scotland does become independent.

i fear this is where the real problem lies and nothing to do with if Scotland can look after itself or not. if Scotland gets independence its going to cause a financial meltdown across the whole of the UK be it temporary or not.

instead of the two governments sitting down and actually helping each other work out the problems in the up coming referendum they have been at each others throats. how do you think this is looking in the eyes of the rest of the world...

Originally Posted by TamSV

I agree. If, as the SNP predict, the Scottish economy will boom and rUK will not (or if the opposite happens) the last thing you need is a central bank that won't respond to that. We know from looking at Ireland and Greece what happens in both those situations. The best solution is likely a Scottish central bank and an independent currency.

As you say the SNP must know this but then you're into the politics. The UK government are not willing to negotiate in advance of the referendum - it would be politically impossible for them to do so. This leaves the SNP needing to fill the void but free to come up with pretty much anything they like as a suggested outcome.

As they are seeking to convince non-SNP supporters to their cause, they have unsurprisingly come up with a package that is designed not to frighten the horses - to suggest that everything will be the same. This has some logical flaws of course. Why would you want to leave the UK and all its institutions only to then create a tiny identikit version of it all?

As an example, many in the SNP are republican to their core. For the party to say they will keep the Queen is, to me, an obvious electoral ploy. Many hope that the issue of the monarchy will be dealt with after independence so they are not talking about it now. You could argue that's fair enough as it is a different issue but it illustrates the point that the type of Scotland the SNP are proposing is not necessarily the Scotland they actually want to see and, anyway, as it's all subject to the uncertain outcome of negotiations, it's not something they can ever hope to deliver in its entirety.

As someone who leans towards independence this causes me some issues. My problem is not that I disagree with the SNP manifesto, although I do believe it to be flawed. Political manifesto's are rarely delivered and I would hope this one will be no different. In any event the Yes campaign is bigger than the SNP. Many people will vote Yes who do not support that party just the same as many people who voted SNP at the last election will vote No in the referendum. From my own perspective, it probably suits that as much as possible stays the same, including a currency union of some description. The various political parties can then adjust to the new reality and we go from there. Our problem at the moment is that there is no competing mainstream vision for an independent Scotland.

I do have some concern for the people who don't spend too much time thinking about such matters who may not realise they are being sold a pup. That things may initially be the same, but they won't stay that way. Then again, those are the people who don't normally vote and, if they did, may be destined to always be misled by the next politician with a good story - so maybe I shouldn't worry about them so much.

Excellent post. Just to expand on the bit in bold, there is a general election in March 2015 (which is probably what you meant by politically impossible to do so). Nobody in the UK government will even start negotiating on that (if they even negotiate and don't just turn Scotland down flat and say no) until after the General Election. A different party could get in, and so Salmond doesn't even know who he'll be negotiating with. Not that I'm sure that would change the outcome, which would be no, because Conservative, Labour and Lib Dem already agree on that.

Furthermore, the UK politicians are going to be concentrating on the General Election, Scottish independence is nowhere on their list of priorities, so no negotiations on anything will take place until after the general election. Salmonds timescales of independence by 2016 are nothing but a fantasy.

Also totally agree that the best currency solution is a Scottish central bank and an independent currency.

It's not the English getting upset, it's the British.

Originally Posted by Bibio

yes Scotland will have no currency, yes Scotland will have no financial status in fact Scotland will have nothing and surprise surprise that's because it will be a new country. everything is uncertain for Scotland's future its true and you would have to be a complete idiot not to see that.



i fear this is where the real problem lies and nothing to do with if Scotland can look after itself or not. if Scotland gets independence its going to cause a financial meltdown across the whole of the UK be it temporary or not.

instead of the two governments sitting down and actually helping each other work out the problems in the up coming referendum they have been at each others throats. how do you think this is looking in the eyes of the rest of the world...

Absolutely correct. A Yes vote will temporarily damage us all, the rUK will recover, but given we are only just recovering from the last downturn, we don't want another one, and neither should the people of Scotland.

Whether or not Scotland ever recovers, or goes bankrupt, will depend who you've got at the top and what decisions they've made. As you've said in your post it's all an unknown. Those people are going to need to be clever, committed, passionate, determined and most importantly non-self serving (so get rid of Salmond first opportunity you get).

Whether or not you vote Yes next Thursday, depends entirely on whether you think that risk is worth it, and whether or not you can trust your politicians to take you in the right direction. If I had a vote it would be No, because I wouldn't trust the SNP and don't know who'd replace them so I can't possibly decide whether I'd trust them or not.

Whether you like it or not, the independence argument is wider than the SNP, but it is still all about the people that govern you.

Once you've gone independent, you've started the ball rolling, the yacht race is in motion, you are just a passenger, and your just going to have to hope you have the winning team at the helm. Because if you loose, your bankrupt, there's no way out!

Think carefully about this vote Bib's, it's the most important cross you will ever put on a ballot paper.

Originally Posted by Spank86

It's not the English getting upset, it's the British.

Yes, the economist in that video was rather passionate about it, and he was Scottish.

50% of the people in Scotland planning to vote No, are rather passionate about it, and they are Scottish.

This isn't an England vs Scotland debate.

Everyone that is discussing this so passionately on this thread is pro-Scotland. Anti-Scotland and Anti-Independence are not the same thing.

[MisterTommyH]

Originally Posted by Bibio

. i really dont see why the English are getting so upset about the Scottish referendum unless they have something to loose so please enlighten me what difference is it going to make to the rest of the UK if Scotland does become independent. or is it just plain bitterness that the high and mighty England is loosing yet another one of its pets.

No, It's not bitterness at all. As has been said, if you do vote Yes then good luck to you.

We are, however, still entitled to our opinion. Many of us are quite keen on the union, and on Scotland, and on our country as it currently is. And yes, we think we will be worse off because of it, but thats not the first consideration.

If your best mate was marrying (or even divorcing) someone and you thought they were making a mistake, would you not at least try and have a word... convince them to re-consider? Especially if that might make your friendship with their other half more difficult? Alright, ultimately it's their decision to make, and you'll stick by them, but you'd want to make sure that they were making the right decision for the right reasons? Wouldn't you? Maybe a tenuous analogy, but thats the best I can do.

[MisterTommyH]

Originally Posted by Fordward

Anti-Scotland and Anti-Independence are not the same thing.

Although they are (quite successfully) being painted as the same thing.....

[Bibio]

trust me Fordword, i am thinking of this carefully but unlike most people i'm not just thinking about me, i'm actually thinking of the generations to come. nothing about the BOE or Westminster in recent decades has shown me any reason the still be part of that union.

i dont trust ANY politician as far as i can throw them and dont believe a word that comes out any one of their mouths. politicians are like the hands on the dial of a clock you can tell the time by looking at them but its the workings of a clock that make the time so it does not matter what hands you put on the clock as long as the workings work. politicians tell us what's happening but these are based on the people behind the scenes who actually do all the hard work and run our country.

the biggest problem with politicians is they are not experts in the position they hold.

Originally Posted by Bibio

trust me Fordword, i am thinking of this carefully but unlike most people i'm not just thinking about me, i'm actually thinking of the generations to come. nothing about the BOE or Westminster in recent decades has shown me any reason the still be part of that union.

Well I do have to agree there, If Scotland had been independent since the 70's we might not have had two scots buggering up our country through the noughties.

[Bibio]

i will now give my reason why i'm voting yes on the 18th.

Scotland as a nation has hard times ahead of it be it in the union or out the union when the oil finally runs out. being in the union when this happens is pretty much going to mean very hard times for the Scottish population as it will not be in control of its own finances and not have built up its own economy. being out the union means that Scotalnd with the right people behind the scenes can work towards a hopefully stable financial future where they will not need the revenue form the oil as long as they can build and sustain an economy, how Scotland would do this i dont know as i'm no expert on economics and i'm placing my trust on such people to do the right job as i already do at the moment.

either way it's not looking good for Scotland's future but i would rather stay in a country that is in charge of its own economic climate rather than beg for handouts that WILL be slashed. at the moment Scotland's finances are pretty much give and take of what we send down to Westminster and what we receive back so at the moment all is well, when the oil does run out then there will be a massive shortfall in what Scotland is contributing to the coffers and i'm not nieve enought to think that we will still be given the same revenue to look after our affairs.

this is why in one of my earlier posts i mentioned that i would prefer to see the UK disbanded and one single country created with one single currency as this would insure that everyone was treated fairly. this in time would stop the 'identity slagging' as we would all be 'insert nationality of new country'. but this is not happening so i'm voting for the next best thing that is in my interest to do so. only downside to this is the 'identity slagging' will continue and more than likely get even worse which is a shame.

my thought proses might be a bit strange or even wrong but thats how i feel about the future of Scotland.

the BOE could collapse tomorrow which would leave ALL of us up the shizz creek and owing to England having the highest population of all of the UK then this is where most of the available revenue would be spent in sustaining this population.