Applying for tough jobs

[G]

Originally Posted by yorkie_chris

I've got to disagree with you on that.

It's a free for all world, if someone wants to take a risk with their money and employ someone who doesn't have all the bits of paper it's entirely their business.

Reason everything is going to pot is nothing to do with people without qualifications. Qualifications mean bugger all, there are lads who did better in the Engineering degree than me whom I wouldn't trust to design a paperclip. I say reason everything is going to pot is too much trust in bits of paper!

If someone gets a job because someone thinks they're worth the risk, that their personality and attitude would be an asset: Good! We have plenty drones to fill in tickboxes.

Originally Posted by Drew Carey

+1......there are too many grads here who have business & finance degrees, coupled with masters in Economics or Business etc.......and nearly all cases I would never contemplate hiring.

The most crucial part of any job process is the interview.....the rest of it just gets you through the door. It is about understanding their personality and how they come across. Common sense is the biggest thing missing from most "qualified" CV's / people I see. When you ask questions aimed at generating "common sense" answers, you then can really see if they will adapt etc.

All of this is IMHO and based on personally recruiting graduates & experienced employees into the business.

+2

There is much more about someone than a piece of paper... some people are simply not academic.

There are people at my work who are highly qualified complete numpties... then there are others that have next to nothing, but are the better than any of the other people as the actually have a personality and can speak and deal with people in different ways.

If you go to a client aggresively with your point, because your highly qualified, and you can prove your point by this piece of legislation and this high level study... the client will think your a complete ****. If you build a relationship with them through having an amazing personality (you don't need to like them) then you can sell them any idea without much hassle as long of it is of benefit to them.

I have a friend that ****ed about at uni, didn't try very hard, and did crap... but she has an amazing personanilty, great character and is very very clever. She wanted to become a teacher, her qualifications are not great for the reasons above, but because of her character and personality in the interview for a PGCE she was snapped up, and is one now one of the few good teachers I know.

So be stong... and do what you want to do... if you have the right substance you'll get the job.

So this thread is mostly talking about applying with CVs, what about those jobs that require actual applications and they don't want to see a CV? What makes you really stand out from all those other folk applying?

You'd think it would be easier to get your personality across in a written application but in some ways I think it's much harder, aside from the fact you end up spending hours writing it and the buggers don't even have the decency to respond, but hey, it's a tough world out there

[G]

Originally Posted by missyorkie_chris

So this thread is mostly talking about applying with CVs, what about those jobs that require actual applications and they don't want to see a CV? What makes you really stand out from all those other folk applying?

You'd think it would be easier to get your personality across in a written application but in some ways I think it's much harder, aside from the fact you end up spending hours writing it and the buggers don't even have the decency to respond, but hey, it's a tough world out there

I hate applications like that... normally 100% exclusive to public sector job... local authorities and the like.

[Drew Carey]

Originally Posted by missyorkie_chris

So this thread is mostly talking about applying with CVs, what about those jobs that require actual applications and they don't want to see a CV? What makes you really stand out from all those other folk applying?

You'd think it would be easier to get your personality across in a written application but in some ways I think it's much harder, aside from the fact you end up spending hours writing it and the buggers don't even have the decency to respond, but hey, it's a tough world out there

I totally agree, these are a pain in the proverbial.......with these types of jobs you can only submit and hope. My only advice is keep it honest, plan what you want to write and get a professional to review - most people will have a family friend etc willing to review it.

Edit - as for standing out from the crowd......I think it is almost impossible to do so (IMHO), hence you need to be honest. Reason I say this, is that the person on the other end will have vastly different opinions from someone else......hence something you feel is really positive etc, may be taken completely differently. It really is just pot luck.......however, if you got the chance to meet someone, then you can begin to convey personality etc.

[Drew Carey]

Whilst on the point of CV's etc, in the past many people used to embellish on CV's etc.....however, we now have external companies who's job is to check every item on CV's etc. They are forgiving on dates etc - but I have seen newly recruited employees marched from the building within weeks of them starting as checks have revealed lies on CV's.

[Biker Biggles]

I dont understand the problem.Surely non cv applications give exactly the kind of leeway to put character and personality into the process,partially removing the lazy tick box mentality that we all hate so much.As stated the biggest problem is getting through the door when you dont technically tick all the right boxes.so a bit of "free text" gives you that opportunity.

[Drew Carey]

Originally Posted by Biker Biggles

I dont understand the problem.Surely non cv applications give exactly the kind of leeway to put character and personality into the process,partially removing the lazy tick box mentality that we all hate so much.As stated the biggest problem is getting through the door when you dont technically tick all the right boxes.so a bit of "free text" gives you that opportunity.

The problem is it is all subjective. The different personalities on the other end of a computer may completely misconstrue what you are trying to highlight or get accross.

This is why, when face to face, you can convey emotion, trust, understanding, alertness, common sense etc. All of which are extremely hard to convey in written text.

[Biker Biggles]

Originally Posted by Drew Carey

The problem is it is all subjective. The different personalities on the other end of a computer may completely misconstrue what you are trying to highlight or get accross.

This is why, when face to face, you can convey emotion, trust, understanding, alertness, common sense etc. All of which are extremely hard to convey in written text.

Fine when/if you get through the door,but only a bit of subjectivity can get past the tick box mentality that keeps good potential workers out of a job.

[Drew Carey]

Originally Posted by Biker Biggles

Fine when/if you get through the door,but only a bit of subjectivity can get past the tick box mentality that keeps good potential workers out of a job.

Agreed, but its why I chose when looking to get dressed in my suit and go and hand CV's and sit down with approx 25 agencies in Birmingham. It is a pain (especially whilst still working), but it does work, as enabled me to get my point of view accross.

Originally Posted by Drew Carey

Edit - as for standing out from the crowd......I think it is almost impossible to do so (IMHO), hence you need to be honest. Reason I say this, is that the person on the other end will have vastly different opinions from someone else......hence something you feel is really positive etc, may be taken completely differently.

Honesty is me so that's not an issue. However, I've recently applied for a job I actually really want, I painstakingly pored over my application and it didn't take as long as it normally would because everything I wrote just flowed easily. I'd hope it was obvious I'd written it from the heart so to speak, but I'm wondering if it's worth following it up with a phonecall to draw attention to my name...worth doing?

Originally Posted by Biker Biggles

I dont understand the problem.Surely non cv applications give exactly the kind of leeway to put character and personality into the process,partially removing the lazy tick box mentality that we all hate so much.As stated the biggest problem is getting through the door when you dont technically tick all the right boxes.so a bit of "free text" gives you that opportunity.

Well you'd think that, and I suppose if you choose to write a cover letter you can jabber on about how much you are suited to the job and big up your personality. But in an application specific to a job, or a template app specific to an organisation, everything you write has to be job specific, tailored to the job in mind. Takes a lot long than a few amendments to a pre-written CV, in my opinion anyway. It's a pain in the **** to be frank

Also, when writing non CV applications, aren't there particular words, phrases and such that potential employers will be looking out for in your text to tick off their boxes?