Friendly Fire from american planes that killed british troop

Originally Posted by northwind

Point is, there was no uncertainty. They voiced their concerns, they was told "there are no friendly units in that area", and acted accordingly. They were on engage-at-will orders, which means you don't ask permission to shoot, or so I'm told.

Would you trust your eyes more than a remote radio controller? The pilots weren't sure if what they saw was an allie marker, or a rocket launcher. That's my point. I would hazard a guess that a more experienced pilot would of been able to more clearly identify the vehicles. However, that is simple speculation.

Originally Posted by northwind

Turn it around... That British convoy comes under attack from a large group of insurgents... Should they wait till they're completely, utterly 100% sure, with confirmation and explicit authority to fire, before firing? Or is it more important that they're flexible enough to be able to react quickly? It's cost a life here, how many lives does it save that you'll never hear about?

I posted about that before on this thread. I fully realise that happens, and IMO, that's better than having to wait. However, there has to be a level of responsibility somewhere along the chain.

Originally Posted by northwind

If I make a mistake, then I get slapped wrists, but if I make a mistake but with the acceptance and confirmation that it's OK from my colleagues, you won't get far trying to blame me alone...

If I make a mistake, and its serious enough, not only do I risk loosing my job, but there's also the possibility of legal action. That means either being sued, or possibly jail time. I can be prosecuted under the laws of the country that my mistake directly affects. I knew that when I signed the contract.

Originally Posted by northwind

..

Its all about setting appropriate ROEs (Rules of Engagement), even in a conflict there are still strict ROEs ...

In this instance I feel they weren't 'gun-ho' mind (they clearly asked if there were any friendlies in the area before pulling the trigger) ... but I mean "Looks like they have orange on them" ... my god regardless of what intel say, bearing in mind what the orange is there for ... and the implications of getting it wrong ... take a close fly-buy first to get a confirmed visual, not just assume they are frigging orange missiles!! ... I mean WTF?

Anyway as I see it, that was where the mistake was made and the point at which this should never have happened ...

Also it didn't take them long to find out they were friendlies AFTER they pulled the trigger ... whatever method (radio??) they got this, why wasn't it used to check prior?!

Originally Posted by Blue_SV650S

In this instance I feel they weren't 'gun-ho' mind (they clearly asked if there were any friendlies in the area before pulling the trigger) ... but I mean "Looks like they have orange on them" ... my god regardless of what intel say, bearing in mind what the orange is there for ... and the implications of getting it wrong ... take a close fly-buy first to get a confirmed visual, not just assume they are frigging orange missiles!! ... I mean WTF?

Exactly!

Originally Posted by Blue_SV650S

Also it didn't take them long to find out they were friendlies AFTER they pulled the trigger ... whatever method (radio??) they got this, why wasn't it used to check prior?!

I suspect that was because of the fact that the British troops got on the radio pronto, and the British radio controller jumped on the American frequency screaming things that you couldn't ever post on this forum

OK I'll wade in.
These guys are in control of "TankBusters".

From a technical point of view:

Now I'm not military but my understanding is people put in the seat of planes designed to raze entire columns of armour have identification of vehicles pummelled into them for obvious reasons.

Our Vehicles don't LOOK like anything the Iraqi's have, the Identification panels are distinctive and A10's target their guns through magnified scopes so he'd get a real close up look at what he was shooting at.

Also, why the second pass?
Not only would you of got a good close up of the ID on the vehicles and clearly seen they are British,

Also in Blue on Blue, and an A10 can't be mistaken for ANYTHING ELSE! you pop smoke that shows you are a friendly and that it's a Blue-blue situation.
When they got hit in the first run they would of popped the smoke, I'll check up on that but no way in hell did they not know it was an A10 and that = American.


Now from an emotive point of view:

Yes he was told no friendlies but when in doubt you ask for and get confirmation, he didn't even ask for confirmation to open fire.
Yes this suggests maybe they orders to "engage targets of opportunity" but that does not = shoot anything you feel like it means if you see and confirm a target of opportunity, take it out.

If you are in doubt enough to check the "orange things" 5 times, surely you check and get permission to open fire OR AT LEAST do a fly by to confirm! they circled but did no fly by to confirm.
There is nothing out there that could of threatened an A10 to excuse him not taking that move and if they weren't friendly, they had no where to go, the 2 A10's would of minced all of them in moments.

I'm getting conflicting reports about these guys stations, some pass them off as reservists some say they were senior, either way they should of confirmed their targets, if not before opening fire, after the first run and when they saw the smoke.

And the Orange Rockets comment was because it sounds like they are fishing for an excuse to fire here, I've NEVER heard of such a thing......

Fluorescent orange markers that can be seen from the air are chose for a damn good reason and should of set alarm bells ringing for the Pilot AND his controller, they have been standard for YEARS.

And I'm sorry but there is no excuse for an A10 not to take a closer look, there isn't a damn thing in Iraq that poses a threat to them, certainly not at the range he'd need to confirm what he's shooting at.

Personally it seems they realised they were running out of time and had to make a call and despite all the doubts wanted to get a kill before they went home and convinced themselves that Orange rockets on an organised convoy were more feasible than Orange Friendly markers.

[arc123]

We all know the Americans have a tendency to shoot first and ask questions later.

My issue is with the powers that be here - MOD/Whitehall denied this video even existed for 3 years. Now theres loyalty for our serving armed forces

The American pilots made a mistake, but with a 30mm gatling gun.

I don't blame them, just the situation that they were in.

The Iraqis would have plenty to attack a low flying A-10 with...Shoulder launched SAMs, heavy flak and automatic machine guns. It would have been very unwise for a slow flying aircraft to fly low and slow over a possible enemy.

[arc123]

It would have been very unwise for a slow flying aircraft to fly low and slow over a possible enemy.

really? They seemed to be happy flying up there for a good few minutes before actually opening fire on bright orange convoy

To be honest more than blame I'm interested in what they are going to do to try to prevent things like this happening again.

Yes Blue Blue will always happen, sad fact, but this could of been prevented.

Running around covering your asses doesn't help anyone in the long run, it happened, people know it happened and the truth will out.
Instead of wasting time giving people the run around fess up and make sure it doesn't happen again.

I'm still doubtful the Iraqis have anything that could hurt an A10 though...these things are designed to go up against mobile armour that is usually escorted by mobile AA....and an Iraqi with an RPG is going to get lucky? pppffffft I want his luck so I can go play the lottery

As for flak I've not heard of them using that yet =/
I know they keep alluding to "advanced weapons" from Syria but I've yet to hear of any mobile AA or flak cannons and I'm fairly sure that would be big news =/

Originally Posted by Chief

really? They seemed to be happy flying up there for a good few minutes before actually opening fire on bright orange convoy

Flak, machine gun fire and SA-7s only reach so far. An RPG is not a surface to air missile. The A-10 is armoured but not invincible. ZSU-23-4 "Shilka" is a mobile flak battery that can shoot down A-10s all day long...the iraqi army had plenty. And the worst case is always what you plan for.

Originally Posted by The Basket

The American pilots made a mistake, but with a 30mm gatling gun....

I actually think this highlights something else that stuck me at first ... several mins flying about and 2 strike runs '000s of rounds of ammo and only 1 dead ... if that was actually the enemy they were 'taking out' then they would have done a pretty lousy job and expended all that resource!!