Can contersteering be overdone to a dangerous point?

Originally Posted by Fizzy Fish

Monkey, I wonder whether the reason that you can't lean the Daytona any further without feeling like you'll drop it is because you're not going fast enough at that point to need to do so?

TBH on my gixxer I rarely need to drop the bike down further with a conscious push from the bars, as it turns so easily anyway. The only time I've found the need to do so is for fast changes of direction on track. I should imagine your bike would behave in a similar way, unless the suspension's been adjusted.

Incidently, once you've got your tyres warmed up on a dry track, you'd be amazed at how quickly you can throw a bike down for a turn and not lose traction. You can try it out for yourself at the chicane in March!

I've never been a riding God ness. I didin't really get out on the SV enough and am practising on the Daytona when I can. I think it's the hardcore tyres that are impeding me. The profile is mental compared to the sports touring rubber that I was used to. Looking to change them before Silverstone but only if I can get a buyer for mine. I've also been very nervous about quick direction changes especially so on a corner. I've got a bit of a mental block when it comes down to overtaking on corners on the road. Think it's too much time in the van. (I've been having nearly sleepless nights already because of Silverstone!)

[northwind]

I saw a wee video of that (no hands) with an indicator on the yokes showing fork angle... Basically, when you move your weight to the inside of the planned turn, the movement "bends" the bike at the steering stem and the wheel turns towards the outside of the turn, ie, it effectively countersteers itself even though you're not touching the bars. If the forks weren't raked, it wouldn't work the same way. Sort of hard to explain, but if you imagine pushing a bike sideways at about the middle, then you can see that the bars will move as a result.

Still, it is possible to turn a bike with locked steering, Marc Gillespie used to do it as part of his stunt show, Kevin Carmichael's done it too. He hung himself right off the bike then pulled it on top of himself, basically just knocked it over, then rode it out and stood it back up. You couldn't use it on the road, I asked him about it once and he said the hard part isn't starting it turning- that's pretty easy once you get aggressive enough- it's stopping it from just falling over. Technically very hard, but it made for a rubbish looking stunt so he's stopped doing it. He said he offered to show Keith Code how to do it but never got an answer

Originally Posted by gettin2dizzy

here

Very good.

He he.

Luke, We're into semantics here mate.

Whether you use weight transfer to hinge the bike (which moves the bars) or use the bars to hinge the bike, the result is, the bike hinges, which makes it tip in one direction or the other.

As explained earlier, you have to keep pressure on the bars to *continue* the turn but you can get the bike to tip in initially using your body, knees etc.

Of course if you lock the steering the bike isn't going to hinge and thus, the bike isn't going to turn. Which sort of validates the above. Why did they need to lock the steering? Because if they hadn't, it would have turned the bike.

QED really.

I feel that's been explained as well as it can be and that there's not a lot more to add.

Cheers,
Carl

I think you will find its all voodoo

HTH

Originally Posted by teriyakimonkey

I've never been a riding God ness. I didin't really get out on the SV enough and am practising on the Daytona when I can. I think it's the hardcore tyres that are impeding me. The profile is mental compared to the sports touring rubber that I was used to. Looking to change them before Silverstone but only if I can get a buyer for mine. I've also been very nervous about quick direction changes especially so on a corner. I've got a bit of a mental block when it comes down to overtaking on corners on the road. Think it's too much time in the van. (I've been having nearly sleepless nights already because of Silverstone!)

what tyres have you got on the Daytona? Unless you've got something stupidly sticky on (which can take a while to warm up in the winter during road use) then I'd hold off changing them as they should in theory be fine for the road.

TBH it may be the fact that they are newer and therefore less squared off than the ones on your previous bike. I put a new set (Pilot Power 2CTs) on mine recently and it caught me out a couple of times in the first few days as the bike turned so quickly i had to pick it back up a bit mid corner! Fine now though - just a case of getting used to the difference really.

However - if time to adjust to the bike/tyres isn't helping with your cornering, then you could adjust the suspension slightly to stop it dropping in too quickly.

Don't worry about the trackday, you can take things as slowly as you feel comfortable and then build up gradually. It should certainly help with your cornering!

[northwind]

Originally Posted by Berlin

Of course if you lock the steering the bike isn't going to hinge and thus, the bike isn't going to turn. Which sort of validates the above. Why did they need to lock the steering? Because if they hadn't, it would have turned the bike.

QED really.

It breaks their clever example, though... CSS have always made a huge point about how only countersteering through the bars can turn a bike, but the demonstration's completely flawed because it actively prevents no-hands steering. All it proves is that you need a steering stem to turn a bike effectively, not that you need to use the bars and countersteer. That always annoyed me, Code's so smug about it but his example's so bent. The results are fair- even though there's alternatives that'll turn a bike other than bar steering, they're impractical- but the demonstration's nothing but a stunt.

And like I say, it can still be done, it's just completely unlike how you would ride a bike.

I also have a 07 daytona and know exacty what you mean, it feels like you fall in to the corner rather than turn once you reach a certain point. i also think it is due to the tyres and the fast turn in nature of the bike, im kinda getting used to it now but with my rear tyre near its end i am going to try the metz m3, as i have heard they are a more progressive tyre, also the stock tyres arent really suited for genral road rideing.

Originally Posted by Fizzy Fish

what tyres have you got on the Daytona? Unless you've got something stupidly sticky on (which can take a while to warm up in the winter during road use) then I'd hold off changing them as they should in theory be fine for the road.

I've got OEM Pirelli Dragon Supercorsas on it. Prifile like the top of an egg. After reading the tyre supplement in bike it suggests there's no way I will be able to tyres like this at their best temp wether on the road or track. I've contacted a fellow Daytona-er (?) who keeps his bike a replica of a racers and asked if he wants to buy my tyres off me. If he does then I'll get Diablos or the new Diablo Rossos but if not I'll just wear them out on the track .

Originally Posted by wtdafk

I also have a 07 daytona and know exacty what you mean, it feels like you fall in to the corner rather than turn once you reach a certain point. i also think it is due to the tyres and the fast turn in nature of the bike, im kinda getting used to it now but with my rear tyre near its end i am going to try the metz m3, as i have heard they are a more progressive tyre, also the stock tyres arent really suited for genral road rideing.

Were you recommended them for the Daytona specifically?