Electric Bikes - Scanning interest.

Originally Posted by andreis

If you're going green, then perhaps this isn't the best route.. Seeing as how the production of the materials you require produces more pollution than what your 125 (diesel if you must) will produce in its lifespan...
However, if you are going to do some innovative engine designs, why not go the H way?
And I don't mean hydrogen fuel cells, which are IMHO a dead end (expensive, hard to produce etc), or liquid hydrogen which is also very hard to contain & use safely
I mean producing the hydrogen on the way. I saw a design dating back from the '80 which some guy sent to BMW so that they could reproduce what he built and help him develop it. It was basically producing hydrogen from the electrolysis of water & aluminum, which produced enough h to power the electrolysis & charge a capacitor which would power an electric engine. The byproduct was some oxidized aluminum (which can be used to extract aluminum back by the use of energy) which is solid and gets deposited at the bottom of the electrolysis vessel. To extract the aluminum back you use power from the grid back home.

Soooo, if you reuse the aluminum and only consume water (with the only byproduct being safely deposited at the bottom of the electrolysis vessel), you get a pretty green vehicle which doesn't require batteries or the likes..
Btw, for general information, the guy died before he could continue, and BMW did reproduce his work and asked him if he could design the system so that the byproduct could be easily extracted after there is none left.. He died before he could..

I'm not entirely sure of the details, of all of this, but I will search for a linky..

In some relation to this idea, there is alot of reasearch around concerning the photo-splitting of water on a titanium dioxide surface.

Andreis, I like that idea, but where does the energy come from to split the water to form hydrogen and AlO? I can see though how it is a quite favorable process; the formation of a metal oxide in contrast to just free bimolecular oxygen may work more energy efficient. I'd like to see some thermodynamic equations though, it should be easy to work out the gibbs free energy values (might have a go myself if I can find some data)

The biggest concern is the energy needed to regenerate aluminium metal..

Right up to stage 1 of my considerations.

My inital design will involve a 12v battery, power inverter a 240v Inverter drive for the motor, a 240v AC motor and will work as a test. I'm hoping i can borrow a motor, drive and battery from work and just run a test on a bench with a 10k pot.

I have found a website with a full set of formulas to work out specs. I'm hoping to find a rolling frame of a 125 and go for it. Fingers crossed, just gotta wait for my share payout to come through to build it.

£46 to fill my Punto for 300 miles is disgusting and the SV is much better at £13 for 120 miles but compared to 8p for 30 miles (if i pay the 8p at all) then it will be worth it.

Come April i am getting a works van it will cut down my car usage by about 250 miles a month hopefully which should save me some money but come September once my years insurance is up the car is going.

Originally Posted by Alpinestarhero

In some relation to this idea, there is alot of reasearch around concerning the photo-splitting of water on a titanium dioxide surface.

Andreis, I like that idea, but where does the energy come from to split the water to form hydrogen and AlO? I can see though how it is a quite favorable process; the formation of a metal oxide in contrast to just free bimolecular oxygen may work more energy efficient. I'd like to see some thermodynamic equations though, it should be easy to work out the gibbs free energy values (might have a go myself if I can find some data)

The biggest concern is the energy needed to regenerate aluminium metal..

The energy should come from the burning of the hydrogen produced. But although I'm math-minded, I don't know physics and don't know how to see which equations would describe the process in order to find out if it was efficient enough to run (which might be an argument towards why no one is using it).
The energy to regenerate the aluminum metal is another concern, of course, as it would have to be done with energy provided by a pollution free source.

From the link provided by wyrdness I read that it takes quite a bit of energy to do that and that the reaction produces CO2 (which is probably due to the fact that it releases free oxygen which the quickly combines to CO2), but I'm guessing it could be circumvented.

The thing is that we are ultimately looking for a system where we have a sufficient amount of energy while we're mobile and a way of disposing of the waste that is pollution free, under the assumption that we can produce vaste amounts of energy without polluting while we're not mobile. Thus, the question would not be the amount of energy required to recycle the waste (in this case AlO), but if we can do it without polluting.

The assumption that we can produce pollution free energy is not true now (as power plants burn coal/fission uranium etc), but I'm guessing that it could (must) be true in the future (beriliu fusion )

So, to conclude my post, I don't know how to state the proper equations. But if someone is a bit more physics minded than I am, then perhaps they could do it from the link I provided in my second post (the one with the pattern and the complete description of the system)..

Originally Posted by thefallenangel

£46 to fill my Punto for 300 miles is disgusting and the SV is much better at £13 for 120 miles but compared to 8p for 30 miles (if i pay the 8p at all) then it will be worth it.

Punto: £15.33 per 100 miles.
SV: £10.83 per 100 miles.

Getting to work smiling - priceless!

Electric bike: £0.27 per 100 miles!

Oh the sanctimonious smirk! And when the petrol runs out you can still charge it from a wood burning furnace, or a windmill, or solar panels. Just saw in Bike Jan. 2009 an electric dirt-bike. (Zero-X), in case you're interested!

I'm all for embracing alternative fuels, particularly for the run to work. My commute is only 18 miles round trip so could easily sort something for it. Alternatively I could strap an engine on the back of an old mountain bike??

Originally Posted by carternd

Punto: £15.33 per 100 miles.
SV: £10.83 per 100 miles.

Getting to work smiling - priceless!

Electric bike: £0.27 per 100 miles!

Oh the sanctimonious smirk! And when the petrol runs out you can still charge it from a wood burning furnace, or a windmill, or solar panels. Just saw in Bike Jan. 2009 an electric dirt-bike. (Zero-X), in case you're interested!

Seen it at the Bike Show and wanted a go but they didn't have one on the trade show which was poor showing and they were more interested in selling the franchise. Just seen an electric scooter on Ebay for £650 which will be better than what i build but i will have a word with a guy in work tomorrow who i will work on helping me get a free motor. And i'd use the SV more and i think i should. But looking at that sat you've put the Electric bike will be free espically if i sell my Punto for £600.

[yorkie_chris]

Look at the TTX GP, there's a chance you could actually do it at a half decent speed too

[5hort5]

I'm really interested in how this goes for you m8, give it a go and see and a big thumbs up for giving this a go

[Sid Squid]

It's an interesting project and whilst I understand the failings in the criticisms of electric vehicles, if you can build something that has a range that suits your use then why not do so?
It may not be 'green', few electric system of any kind are, but if the cost to you of your, say, planned commute is lessened it may have some value in your circumstance - whilst accepting that it may be too compromised to be a vehicle for general use.

However, as has been said above, your plan of using an inverter is not realistic, it will consume a considerable proportion of your charge and a motor rated at your carried supply voltage will be significantly less lossy.

i guess. It's why for a 180w motor i'm looking at a 600w inverter to try and not get the heat to affect it too much. I'm looking for a massive amp hour battery to run it.