Jamie Bulger. petition

You are a load of namby pamby wishy washy Liberals on here.
Hang em high I say.

Originally Posted by DanDare

Jeez, I had no idea what they put that kid through. I thought they just threw stones at him which killed him. Thats pretty f***ing digusting.

How the hell can Kids at that age have so much anger and evil in them.

Same here; I didnt know what had happened. I feel quite sick now.

No, really

Matt

Originally Posted by fizzwheel

Maybe to live with the consequences of what you've done is the biggest punishment of all ?

Only if you are truly capable of remorse. I've seen cases where people simply don't feel remorseful (eg, they don't even have the capacity to understand what they've done - think Lenny in "Of Mice & Men" - killing animals etc). If you're not remorseful & are allowed to continue your life, then you're just as likely to commit the same offence again.

Originally Posted by BigApe

My young lad is three years old now, my daughter six. I worry like mad if either one of them disappear round a corner and are out of view for more than a few seconds. This is the society that we live in today.

Slightly OT, and maybe not possible, but I live in a pretty rural area. There are issues with older kids (mainly due to boredom etc) and one certain family. My eldest 2 (8 & 6yrs old) are allowed to wander anywhere they like within a boundary we've discussed with them (like no crossing the road in the village and not going down past the school the other way). If they want to go off our street, they take a 2way radio (we've four of them that work on the same frequency).

They see it as cool, and can hit the "alarm" button if anything happens. We can also talk to them whenever & they can talk to us. Gives them a little freedom to go & be kids without adults being around, but also keeps them safe.

I've considered wiring them with GPS too though (there's a solution that you can set boundaries on the GPS unit, they go outside the boundaries, the unit informs you by SMS).

My 2yr old isn't allowed out of sight, for obvious reasons.

Originally Posted by DanDare

How the hell can Kids at that age have so much anger and evil in them.

I'll probably be shot down in flames for this, but I hope someone understands what I'm trying to convey here (and before anyone starts telling me I don't have a clue about this, I do, I am a father of a 2yo girl and have thought long and hard about this, discussed it with psychologists, etc).

Kids are humans without the society imposed morals and beliefs. Their first instinct when someone doesn't give them what they want is to fight for it, hitting the "offender", looking out for weak spots (anyone noticed how kids aim for the eyes most of the times?). This makes them the closest we'll ever be (or have been) to animals.

The act of "raising" a son/daughter is essentially imposing him/her our (society) views/beliefs about how they should behave in a "human" world, i.e., no hitting, no maiming, no killing, no this, no that, everything that separates us from the animal world. That's why each generation is different from the other, and things that were perfectly acceptable hundreds of years ago are no more. Because deep down, in essence, we are all the same (all of you, remember your last case of road rage, if you had your ways and not a chance in the world to be found out, the offender would have suffered a slow painful death, wouldn't it?...).

Kids at that age (and younger) can and do have that anger and rage, they're called primal instincts. Of course some are worse than others, it's also like that in the animal world, survival of the strongest, the weak have no place. Our job as a society/parents is to make sure those instincts stay well hidden and never rear their ugly head... when they do, this is what happens.

Back on subject, and dated as it is, those kids deserve a chance. Maybe not the way it was dealt with, but they have served their sentence and like BigApe said, they'll have to live with it for the rest of their lives. Serving half time was too little? Probably, but they got out at a time where they still could try and have a "normal" life. Had they been locked up for the full time, they would come out too late in life, which could probably only make things worse.

Just my 2 cents on the subject.

Filipe, in technical terms, everyone is born with the "id" part of the brain. Primal urges. You're hungy, you cry. You're wet, you cry. You're tired, you cry, then sleep.

Later (at around 9months or so IIRC), the "ego" starts to form. This constrains the "id" in a way that it modifies behaviour to try & get what you want. For example, Harry (2yr old) will quite happily turn around "I want fridge juice," if he's allowed, he's happy, if he's denied, he'll try several tricks (including sticking bottom lip out & pretending to sulk cheekily) to get what he wants. This is also the "terrible two's" stage.

Later still (IIRC age 3ish) the "super-ego" starts to form. This constrains the "ego" (and therefore the "id") parts of the brain yet more. This time it's more to do with social rules. Things like saying please & thank you initially, but later things like not talking with mouth full, and even (it's theorised) things like rape are affected by the "super-ego."

So yes, at least one person understood your post

[Messie]

Originally Posted by Baph

Filipe, in technical terms, everyone is born with the "id" part of the brain. Primal urges. You're hungy, you cry. You're wet, you cry. You're tired, you cry, then sleep.

Later (at around 9months or so IIRC), the "ego" starts to form. This constrains the "id" in a way that it modifies behaviour to try & get what you want. For example, Harry (2yr old) will quite happily turn around "I want fridge juice," if he's allowed, he's happy, if he's denied, he'll try several tricks (including sticking bottom lip out & pretending to sulk cheekily) to get what he wants. This is also the "terrible two's" stage.

Later still (IIRC age 3ish) the "super-ego" starts to form. This constrains the "ego" (and therefore the "id") parts of the brain yet more. This time it's more to do with social rules. Things like saying please & thank you initially, but later things like not talking with mouth full, and even (it's theorised) things like rape are affected by the "super-ego."

So yes, at least one person understood your post

I'm sorry but I really have to take issue with this. You state this as though it were fact - it is not. It is the psychodynamic THEORY of psychosexual development, originally proposed by Freud in the late 19th century. Many, many (most) psychologists and psychiatrists do not accept Freud's theories as scientifically testable or supported. The concept of instincts is also a disputed and controversial term. Undoubtedly early experience is critical is forming who and what we are, but so is genetic predisposition. However except in the case of extreme and very rare psychological disorder there is always the facility to change, grow and develop as a human being.
I don't wish to sound rude or to offend anyone but I do have nearly 20 years experience as a BPS accredited Psychologist

Originally Posted by Messie

I'm sorry but I really have to take issue with this. You state this as though it were fact - it is not. It is the psychodynamic THEORY of psychosexual development, originally proposed by Freud in the late 19th century. Many, many (most) psychologists and psychiatrists do not accept Freud's theories as scientifically testable or supported. The concept of instincts is also a disputed and controversial term. Undoubtedly early experience is critical is forming who and what we are, but so is genetic predisposition. However except in the case of extreme and very rare psychological disorder there is always the facility to change, grow and develop as a human being.
I don't wish to sound rude or to offend anyone but I do have nearly 20 years experience as a BPS accredited Psychologist

No offence taken, I posted the above because it was what I was taught (at A-level). The way it was taught came across as fact, but even at the time, I understood well that pretty much ALL area's of psychology are theory. You can pick faults with any study ever performed.

It's all a grey area, nature vs nurture, and to what extent each affects anyone.

EDIT: At least you didn't pick faults with me stating ages, because I'm really fuzzy on that level of detail

I also 'understood'! But, at 10 all of these processes should have been established, and we should then be beyond instinctive behaviour.

Excuses for why they did this could come through thick and fast, and in a small way I would like to empathize with them, but my disgust in their behaviour makes me feel that they do not deserve it. After all, lets not forget they are not dead, they have not paid the ultimate price, and Jamie is, thanks to them. Just because time has past, do we really believe that Jamie's family feel any less grief? The death is just a small part of what this little boy endured.

When do we stop helping the criminals, and start making it clear to people that this behaviour is not acceptable ... yes make examples of them, and encourage people to beafraid to do such awful things ....... rehab just is not a deterant

The petition is probably not worth the paper it is written on, but maybe it will go someway to showing how strongly people feel about such situations. And if not, nothing is lost by trying.

Originally Posted by Tomcat

I also 'understood'! But, at 10 all of these processes should have been established, and we should then be beyond instinctive behaviour.

Excuses for why they did this could come through thick and fast, and in a small way I would like to empathize with them, but my disgust in their behaviour makes me feel that they do not deserve it. After all, lets not forget they are not dead, they have not paid the ultimate price, and Jamie is, thanks to them. Just because time has past, do we really believe that Jamie's family feel any less grief? The death is just a small part of what this little boy endured.

When do we stop helping the criminals, and start making it clear to people that this behaviour is not acceptable ... yes make examples of them, and encourage people to beafraid to do such awful things ....... rehab just is not a deterant

The petition is probably not worth the paper it is written on, but maybe it will go someway to showing how strongly people feel about such situations. And if not, nothing is lost by trying.

Well said, Tomcat.

Originally Posted by Baph

Filipe, in technical terms, everyone is born with the "id" part of the brain. Primal urges. You're hungy, you cry. You're wet, you cry. You're tired, you cry, then sleep.

Later (at around 9months or so IIRC), the "ego" starts to form. This constrains the "id" in a way that it modifies behaviour to try & get what you want. For example, Harry (2yr old) will quite happily turn around "I want fridge juice," if he's allowed, he's happy, if he's denied, he'll try several tricks (including sticking bottom lip out & pretending to sulk cheekily) to get what he wants. This is also the "terrible two's" stage.

Later still (IIRC age 3ish) the "super-ego" starts to form. This constrains the "ego" (and therefore the "id") parts of the brain yet more. This time it's more to do with social rules. Things like saying please & thank you initially, but later things like not talking with mouth full, and even (it's theorised) things like rape are affected by the "super-ego."

So yes, at least one person understood your post

Gotta love a bit of freud

Matt