WTF is wrong with Society?

[Messie]

PhilipMac and MiniMatt - thank you. Voices of reason and intelligence in this debate that I wish I could have.

I love this site and many of the people on it but I do worry about how right wing it appears to be going sometimes.

Voices of reason - please keep talking!

Originally Posted by Messie

PhilipMac and MiniMatt - thank you. Voices of reason and intelligence in this debate that I wish I could have.

I love this site and many of the people on it but I do worry about how right wing it appears to be going sometimes.

Voices of reason - please keep talking!

So what is your answer ? you,ve only agreed with two other people not put forward a case of your own, what would you do ?

Hey, I don't have an answer either. I don't think anyone does. All I know is that the Dark Ages didn't have the solution, and neither do third world dictatorships.

Originally Posted by MiniMatt

Hey, I don't have an answer either. I don't think anyone does. All I know is that the Dark Ages didn't have the solution, and neither do third world dictatorships.

Not easy is it ? the trouble is, whilst we are all talking about these horrific events we forget that we live in a society that is largely law abiding and decent, I dont think there is one simple solution, gives rise to a good debate though.

[Messie]

Nope me neither, but intelligent debate is part of the way forward.

I also think that a greater understanding and tolerance of mental disorder and vulnerability would be very useful. That's not a woolly liberal, knit your own yoghurt attitude either, but I do believe that many people in our prisons for punishment would be better served by being treated in suitable places. And that doesn't necessarily mean letting the dangerous ones out again. As someone else said sorting out the cause is more effective at changing the problem

Originally Posted by Messie

PhilipMac and MiniMatt - thank you. Voices of reason and intelligence in this debate that I wish I could have.

I love this site and many of the people on it but I do worry about how right wing it appears to be going sometimes.

Voices of reason - please keep talking!

The voices erring on the extreme will always stand out. People with such strong views will find it easier to express their opinions in this environment where the internet acts as a safety barrier. Forums are a great way to debate such issues but often you can find whatever argument you want in someone else's post; communication is so much more than written word.

Originally Posted by MiniMatt

So, we need severe and physical punishments to deter crime? Ok, of all the countries in the world, where would you like to live? There has to be one country on this planet where you see your ideal form of justice meeted out. So, where you going to live? I'm going to guess you'd like a 1st world country, one where, perhaps you could have free speech? Let's go for Australia, where they cut peoples hands off for stealing; no... wait.... they don't do that. Ok, why no emigrate to the USA where they have the "three strikes and you're castrated" approach to deter crime; oh, wait.... they don't do that either. How about France, where convicted murderers are executed in exactly the same way they took the lives of their victims; hmm.... no... they don't do that in France either.

America....free?! You're free to say whatever the government is thinking!

Liberal success story

The latest figures (2003), show that 61 per cent of offenders were reconvicted within two years; and 73 per cent of young offenders aged 18-21. The reoffending rate for male adolescents (aged 15-18 ) was 82 per cent.

Many types of custodial and non-custodial schemes do not improve reconviction rates, including intensive supervision in the community and tagging.

The Home Office's latest statistics on community sentences show that of the three main types of non-custodial punishment, Community Rehabilitation Orders, Community Punishment Orders and Community Punishment and Rehabilitation Orders, the failure rate is between 30 and 59 per cent. Of those orders terminated in 2004, almost 1 in 5 CROs were terminated because an offence was committed, in almost all cases leading to immediate custody. In the case of CPOs, it was 1 in 10. In total, a quarter of those serving either CRO or CPOs, committed another crime while serving the order or disobeyed its conditions.

The use of electronic tagging has not helped to rehabilitate young offenders. 75 per cent of young offenders who had been placed on an electronic tag were reconvicted within a year of completing the scheme, compared to 69 per cent of all young offenders who serve custodial sentences

Re-offending rates for some crimes are higher when community as opposed to prison sentences have been served: 69 per cent of those serving community sentences for robbery re-offend compared to 53 per cent of those imprisoned.

Zero tolerance is a great idea, that by stopping crime on it’s lowest most basic level outright will eventually lead to a stop in violent crimes. What an idea! Make it clear you are serious about tackling all crime and people will have faith in their communities and criminals will be deterred.

Every crime I’ve been on the receiving end of has always been one of these minor crimes so why not punish criminals with severe sentences for this? Maybe my bike wouldn’t have been pushed over, windows wouldn’t have been broken, house not broken in to…. I mean **** it I can have an extra few drinks and walk home safe at 5am under these rules can’t I? These crimes are the ones we see every day and the ones that rattles us the most, so let’s get a big stick out and beat the crap out of all criminals, it worked for New York and you can’t argue with the figures.

Well New York is an interesting case, there’s no denying that the massive fall in crime happened when Giuliani brought in his zero-tolerance approach. All statistics will match that correlation regardless of how you look at it but as with all these political agendas it’s not quite the case. Looking across the whole country everyone’s crime rates dropped at the same time regardless of police policy. The crime rate plummeted, murder was down 50% in 5 years! Giuliani wasted no time to announce how much he had improved the city, and that drew media attention from all corners of the world but he never explained once why crime rate plummet was national.

The odd thing was there was a certain piece of history responsible for all of this, the details of which were irrefutable.

17 years prior to this abortion was legalised.

With abortion available to all there was a huge reduction in the number of unwanted kids brought up in the poor poor slums of the US. Fast forward to the nineties when these children would be in their peak crime years and the massive reduction of adults from these broken homes meant that crime just wasn’t happening. The numbers match so perfectly it’s a wonder Giuliani even tried to pretend he was responsible.

One particularly startling figure is that New York, Washington, Alaska and California had legalised abortion 2 years prior to the rest of the country and lo and behold – crime rates had dropped to their knees 2 years earlier.

Ultimately crime is caused by f*ckwits doing f*ckwitted things. Remove the f*ckwits, remove the crime.


But…. On to Giuliani. Why was he praised with the crime drop? Well mass publicity and media coverage mainly, as with American politics it’s a media spin show on a scale that makes Labours own ‘spin control’ policy look like a jack russell trying to get in to some hardcore german shepherd action. Tying in with the deception of 911 there’s a distinct difference between what we receive through the media and what the people think; 80% of New Yorkers believe 911 to be a cover up at the last count.

But Giuliani’s ‘prophecy’ is utterly terrifying when you look in to the police state he has created. There’s now 40,000 monitored cctv cameras operating in NYC, permanent surveillance helicopters working 24/7 and even a blimp with ground penetrating radar than see through walls recording full time. The police have been strip searching people (mainly non-whites) for evading ticket offences (70,000 cases pending and rising), have been caught many a time operating strict racial policing policies with severe brutality and have outlawed using video/camera equipment in Manhattan. Yes, it is an offence to take a video of your holiday without a permit from the mayor. Any protests about this have been met with military-esque presence using equipment designed for the US Army for use on the Taliban.

Common sense has been replaced with policy, the police are now no longer allowed any leniency whatsoever and crime comes with a fixed penalty; even being insane isn’t taken in to account in court. Take an example of a girl who filmed a 20second clip in a cinema to entice her brother to go watch the film ? $2500 fine and a year in jail.

New York has a barrier around it and is monitored like a prison, I for one will not be going there any time soon and if zero tolerance (or just plain intolerance) comes here I’ll be off. It’s a disgusting policy worthy of a place in history alongside 20th century national socialism, soviet rule and putting pineapple on pizzas.

Purely an over sight I am sure by Messie not to have included me in her list of those with reason.But something I can forgive.

Yes mental illness is a big problem and a sad biproduct of this is oftern the crime we see. I would push for a wide spread frontal lobotomy programme which would prove to be far better value than the wages of those in white coats carrying clip boards who's supposed purpose is to treat/rehabilitate such waste in human form.

I thankyou.

Originally Posted by MiniMatt

No? Name me a country then? Name me a country where crime is handled in the way you'd like where you'd like to live. Name me one where crime is substantially lower than in the UK and where punishments are swift severe and permanently disfiguring? Seriously, you can't tell me that of all the 194 countries in the world, of all the six billion people in the world YOU are the only person who has the right idea of how to run a country? Wake up, you're not that important, you're not the visionary you think you are, there are six billion people on the planet, none of them have come up with the perfect solution, but you're egotistical enough to think that YOU have all the answers.

Oooh, handbag! How rude!

I think you'll find I advocate stopping people from offending in the first place. If prison is not a sufficient deterrent (although it has shown to be a good one when the chances of actually ending up there are high) then what else should be considered without going to extremes?

By the way, Japan seems to fare quite well. According to Ruth Benedict's shame culture/guilt culture analysis, an important factor keeping crime low in Japan is the traditional emphasis on the individual as a member of groups to which he or she must not bring shame.

So, I kind of understand why Cameron was going on about wanting to restore family values through responsible parenting. But which generation should start down that road? And given our multiculturalism how to begin to align the moral codes and values of different cultures?

So, here I am again, finding the idea of stopping offenders becoming parents a perfectly logical step towards that goal.

Does that make me an extremist? Personally I find the idea of long term imprisonment pretty extreme. I mean, the sociological effects will be very signifcant making the chances of successful re-integration even more difficult. The notion of a "debt to society" having been repaid by a period of incarceration is nonsense. How does it "help" society?