Direct access good or bad..... Gimme some facts!

[timwilky]

Originally Posted by Jabba-the-Hutt

Since then I've had 9 months on my Hornet and done a Bikesafe course with the local plod.

OK for some. My local plod (Lancs ) will not do bikesafe

Originally Posted by northwind

I don't want to be ptorected against my own stupidity, I want to be protected against other people's incompetence... Since I've nearly been had off twice by tossers on big bikes that they don't know how to ride.

Thats just unlucky. Bikers odds of being hurt by a numpty car drivers or their own inexperience are much higher, and further training is no garuntee of preventing this from happening especially if...

Originally Posted by northwind

The thing about schools, I'm not suggesting that schools buy Blades. There's other ways of doing it- compulsory post-pass training for any bikes above a certain power, for instance, to be done on your own bike once you've bought it. If there was more training money coming in, most schools could afford to run a single higher performance machine as well.

...they do what you suggest and force people to take advanced training. People don't like being forced to do things, especialy if they're forced into things they have to pay for. Too much stick, not enough carrot, as it were. The promotion of further training so that it's viewed as a worth while accomplishment is better than it being something to resent as another hurdle to overcome to start biking.

As for the power issue, thats been covered before and would in practice acheive nothing... http://forums.sv650.org/viewtopic.php?t=14311

[northwind]

So what do you suggest? The current situation doesn't make much sense in too many ways for my liking... Subsidised further training, for bikers and drivers, would be a good thing, for one.

I'm not talking baout compulsory further training, i'm talking about compulsory further training if buyng a bike above a certain power- 100bhp, maybe. Certainly makes more sense than the 33bhp for 2 years restriction, which if you ask me is blatantly stupid...

Here's a structure for it. Abolish DAS entirely. Instead, you have the basic test, and then further tests to ride bigger bikes. You could have a CBT-like system whereby you can ride a more powerful bike one step above your qualification for a training period before taking on the qualification, a month maybe, that removes the need for further training at a formal school. I envision maybe 30 as the basic test, 60, 100, 150hp being the various grades. You could do some of these at the same point of the test, if you wanted, but you would have to do them on a bike within a certain percentage of the target- say 50+ for the 60 horse test, etc.

I'm not saying it's perfect, in fact I'm not even saying it's better than DAS, I just thought of it But it seems to make a little more sense than DAS.

I'm thinking this would in fact reduce the amount of training a lot of people have to do, if they want to ride smaller bikes, say GSs or similiar. But if

There is no point saying "I dont like the current system", unless you can come up with a better method. Thats the mentality of the government and it's extremely irresponsible. If the government (especialy our current one) sees a problem with more powerful bikes, their solution would be to ban them, or some other action carried though with no thought what so ever.

There IS no problem with more powerful bikes other than the responsibility that comes with them and that cant be tested.

[timwilky]

Originally Posted by Flamin_Squirrel

There is no point saying "I dont like the current system", unless you can come up with a better method. Thats the mentality of the government and it's extremely irresponsible. If the government (especialy our current one) sees a problem with more powerful bikes, their solution would be to ban them, or some other action carried though with no thought what so ever.

There IS no problem with more powerful bikes other than the responsibility that comes with them and that cant be tested.

Well said that man. Responsibility is an individual issue. It is when the individuals are not seen to be taking responsibility that the nanny state then step in and wrap us up in cuddly tonys big strong arms. At that point the anti bike facist will win their cause and all bikes > 125cc will be banned.

I have twice been the victim of goverments outlawing my legitimate hobbies and I don't want a third. So everyone please stop talking about additional testing/qualification. Let goverment come up with their own ideas. Take responsibility for yourselves and get extra training, it may actually save your life.

Originally Posted by timwilky

So everyone please stop talking about additional testing/qualification.

Agree.

The culture of testing, re-testing, reviewing, certifying etc is growing like a
malignant tumour in all spheres of British life. I see it every day in my
university. Don't want this tumour to extend to biking.

Originally Posted by The Mass

Jabba, I thought you had been riding for years mate?

Nope. Passed test in May 2003 after one week of DAS. Didn't ride again until getting the Hornet in March 2004.

Originally Posted by The Mass

Also nice to know, that you say you're a safe rider

Cue Jabba's first off..................... sure hope not

Not sure if I'm a safe rider or not - others will be a better judge of that.
However, age and attitude are on my side

[northwind]

Originally Posted by Flamin_Squirrel

There is no point saying "I dont like the current system", unless you can come up with a better method. Thats the mentality of the government and it's extremely irresponsible. If the government (especialy our current one) sees a problem with more powerful bikes, their solution would be to ban them, or some other action carried though with no thought what so ever.

There IS no problem with more powerful bikes other than the responsibility that comes with them and that cant be tested.

I don't agree with that at all... There's 2 factors that make people dangerous on bikes, or in cars- responsibility and skill. You can't train for responsibility, but you can train for better riding skills.

DAS at the moment is a test-passing exercise, it could be a lot more. 4 days solid training is enough to do a lot more than it does, but we end up spending half of our time just riding test routes, practicing endless hill starts... For me, half of my DAS was time and money wasted that could have been better used teaching other riding skills, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

And going a bit further, the standard 4-day DAS schemes ARE too expensive for a lot of people, mine cost me £500! And that's not exactly unusual. What I'm talking about is removing the broadbrush aspects of it and trying to give individuals more appropriate training. Doesn't mean it's going to be more training, or less training. But like I say, I would probably have passed with a day on the big bikes, maybe 2, while others are getting through the system after the 4 days just barely at test level. It doesn't make sense to treat all riders the same.

And there's still the simple fact that we don't just put our own lives at risk on the road. If that wasn't the case, then aye, I'd say let any idiot out with the minimum training and see what happens, it's just natural selection.

Also, I don't agree that you should only express dissatisfaction with a system unless you have a better answer. What's wrong with saying "The current system doesn't work and we should look for another?"

Once again I'm not talking about extra training, though I think it'd be advisable... What I am talking about is the right training. Talk to anyone at a bike school and see how happy they are with the DAS structure.

While we're at it, I'll have everyone doing the theory test before CBT and I'll restrict it to 6 months before you do the test or resit. It was never supposed to be a way to get on the road for a long term, and I've got a couple of mates who're going into their second CBT 2-year period whose riding just curdles my blood.

Did my DAS in 2000, 4 days and passed fine. I was quite happy with the course - but I got a lot of recomendations from friends and family (my brother and his mates) for the instructor. I did a mix of riding skills with manouvers. Doing the tests routes a couple of times as well. The bike was a Honda NTV650 BTW - my first fling with a V Twin

I think maturaty (sp?) comes into this a lot. I brought my first bike based on something that looked half decent and wouldn't be trying to kill me to much. Enter the GPZ500s. Nice bike, great the learn the ropes on. The shop was trying to sell me a CBR600R or a Ninja 600 - to a newbie with no experience... There's accidents waiting to happen...

After 4 years I progressed onto the SV.

I also regocnise that I am not a fast rider and have limitations - I make sure I'm well inside them, most of the time - we all make mistakes

I don't think there is a lot that I would change with the DAS system to be honest. If it had been different I wouldn't be riding right now - I had a week with nothing to do so I took the couse. If I'd have failed I couldn't retake - I liveed in the Netherlands back then as well.

I think the only legislation you could put on it is increase the minimum age for riding a full powered bike - but them my brothers more dangerous than me and he's nearly 31 - so that doesn't work either.

I just don't think you can legislate for the idiots. Not without ruining everyone elses time. Hohum.

Sorry about the rambling nature of the post. Kinda writing as I thought...

Stu

Originally Posted by northwind

I don't agree with that at all... There's 2 factors that make people dangerous on bikes, or in cars- responsibility and skill. You can't train for responsibility, but you can train for better riding skills.

If you pass the test you have the skill to ride a motorcycle safely. Thats all that's, required to get onto the road and that's the way it should be. Better riding skills, what like road positioning, throttle blipping, counter steering, clutchless shifting, weight distribution? Sure having these skills will allow you to ride faster, but that's not what we're talking about. DAS prepares you for starting you off riding on the road, and does it fine.

If you attempt to ride outside your ability then crash because of it, then that comes back to being irresponsable, and if you're going to be irresponsable then more training isnt going to help you or any poor person you might happen to hit.