9/11 Discussion Thread - Split from 9/11 respect thread

[dizzyblonde]

Well, if it takes a not so greatly worded post, which needs slightly more expansion of explanations, from somebody like myself......to get someone a little more diplomatic to come along and actually do something more constructive which suits all parties

I can't see the problem.

Those who want write a post to respect 9/11 can do so in the original thread. Those with slightly more controversial opinion, including moderators, can do so.


Should have been done days ago. But....alls well that ends well... Imo.

Originally Posted by arc123

No straw man.

Definition: a social mechanism, phenomenon, or category created and developed by society; a perception of an individual, group, or idea that is 'constructed' through cultural or social practice

So you are equating the construction of a stereotype where something is assumed about someone merely because of another factor which may be unrelated, with people being offended by specific words and phrases?

Thats a massive jump. I could go along with it if you were complaining that we'd inferred rudeness in someones thoughts based on an inoffensive statement but thats not what happened, the statement taken by itself was found offensive and rude.

Originally Posted by arc123

So you judged the original comments to be rude, thus it is rude?

More because several people in the group did so, it became rude in that context.

How else would you judge rudeness except by reference to the group experiencing it?

[arc123]

So you are equating the construction of a stereotype where something is assumed about someone merely because of another factor which may be unrelated, with people being offended by specific words and phrases?

Now who's using the straw man? I used the definition of societal construct and applied it to both scenarios.

More because several people in the group did so, it became rude in that context.

The thread has 51 replies and 133 views. a handful of people seemed to take mild offence to the comments, and 2 (I think) people stated it to be rude (yourself included). Shall I assume that you have asked for the judgements of every person who has read the thread and not made comment on it being offensive and rude in order for you to reach your conclusive judgement?

[MisterTommyH]

Wow, I've seen this bubbling away for a few days but didn't view the threads because personally I don't pay public remembrances to things like the twin towers attacks. I admit I rolled my eyes when I saw the original thread go up, but that's because of the way I see and deal with things. Who am I to say that others shouldn't commemorate this how they feel best. Although I may personally not like these tributes I am not going to express my opinion in them because it is everyone's right to do so - but this is no longer about one event - its about society (public or forum). I like to think that I am tolerant of other peoples beliefs, mannerisms, ways ............ Extend that to race, sexuality and religion if you want.

The one thing I love about being British is that we, as a nation, culture, multi-racial mixing pot generally have an underlying tolerance for other peoples rights.

9/11 (or whatever you many want to call it) came about from a lack of tolerance of others.

These threads have come about because of a lack of tolerance of others views.

This is something that society as a whole seems to be losing, much to the detriment of our country.

Sometimes I want to stop the world and get off.

There's absolutely no need for this to get either heated or personal. Its (now) and adult discussion between intelligent adults.

If someone disagrees with someone in a thread there can be all sorts of toy throwing and dummy spitting if the posters choose not to accept the other persons point of view. It gets personal when the poster can no longer attack the argument and so starts to attack the arguer. Its poor debate in its truest sense.

and I've seen this before many times. I used to run a forum and as moderator I had to decide when it became about the person and not the argument.

And when I first posted in this thread I was fully aware that this would, quite likely, taint peoples perception of me forever and until hell freezes over and I'm fine with that. After all it's only an opinion and I respect anyone's opinion even if I don't agree with it. It was a considered opinion and action.

I wouldn't even consider posting anything other than respect in a true R.I.P. thread but I don't believe this thread is a true R.I.P thread hence my actions. Those that are disagreeing with me do consider it to be so. They also consider that, for example, this thread (or the original) is a restricted zone where no other opinion is welcome and that is what this debate is really about. One persons consideration of it being a proper R.I.P thrad versus anothers opinion that it's over used and saccharine sweet and cringe worthy and actually detracts from a true R.I.P thread. (mine).

And that's not to mention that fact that I'm an atheist a cringe at "God Bless" Anything, ( and most especially anything to do with war, killing and sides) but out of respect to people believing what they like without just towing the "you must think this" line., I've not brought religion into it.

If you note, my original post was actually a question posed as "Am I the only one that thinks..." So any reply should actually have been yes or no. It turns out that no, I'm not the only one. However, I'm possibly the only one to openly say so and devil be damned.

In hindsight I should have started another thread, however, since becoming a member here nearly a decade ago, and being actively involved in the community of the .org since then I didn't realise, not had read anywhere that certain threads were off limit to discussion.

In future, I will start a new thread if there's the slightest chance that opsting in the original thread might offend those with delicate constitutions. Unless it's someone getting offended on someone else's behalf. Then, I'm afraid it's no going to happen.

Gone fishing...

C

Originally Posted by arc123

Now who's using the straw man? I used the definition of societal construct and applied it to both scenarios.

No, you compared one societal construct (stereotyping) to another (ettiquette), you might as well have compared marriage or modern currency.

Originally Posted by arc123

The thread has 51 replies and 133 views. a handful of people seemed to take mild offence to the comments, and 2 (I think) people stated it to be rude (yourself included). Shall I assume that you have asked for the judgements of every person who has read the thread and not made comment on it being offensive and rude in order for you to reach your conclusive judgement?

You know that each of those views aren't discrete individuals dont you?

My conclusion was admittedly based on the limited evidence of a few longstanding members of the forum finding the comments offensive and rude and not on any in depth survey however most people who find something objectionable will simply move on and make no comment at all. My personal belief is enough people have found it distasteful for it to be considered rude in context.


Incidentally I find this much more fun than a discussion about 9/11.

Originally Posted by Berlin

And when I first posted in this thread I was fully aware that this would, quite likely, taint peoples perception of me forever and until hell freezes over and I'm fine with that. After all it's only an opinion and I respect anyone's opinion even if I don't agree with it. It was a considered opinion and action.

I don't actually disagree with your sentiments BTW, I simply believe that that thread may not have been the best place for its airing at least while it was still 9/11 and that the throw away line about "guff" at the end (think that was you?) was ill chosen and did more to hurt than help your point.

I respect your opinion, and it wont change my perception of any other opinions you chose to air, I just question some of the fine points in your airing of this one, hence my characterisation of some of it as "rude".

[Biker Biggles]

Originally Posted by Berlin

There's absolutely no need for this to get either heated or personal. Its (now) and adult discussion between intelligent adults.

If someone disagrees with someone in a thread there can be all sorts of toy throwing and dummy spitting if the posters choose not to accept the other persons point of view. It gets personal when the poster can no longer attack the argument and so starts to attack the arguer. Its poor debate in its truest sense.

and I've seen this before many times. I used to run a forum and as moderator I had to decide when it became about the person and not the argument.

And when I first posted in this thread I was fully aware that this would, quite likely, taint peoples perception of me forever and until hell freezes over and I'm fine with that. After all it's only an opinion and I respect anyone's opinion even if I don't agree with it. It was a considered opinion and action.

I wouldn't even consider posting anything other than respect in a true R.I.P. thread but I don't believe this thread is a true R.I.P thread hence my actions. Those that are disagreeing with me do consider it to be so. They also consider that, for example, this thread (or the original) is a restricted zone where no other opinion is welcome and that is what this debate is really about. One persons consideration of it being a proper R.I.P thrad versus anothers opinion that it's over used and saccharine sweet and cringe worthy and actually detracts from a true R.I.P thread. (mine).

And that's not to mention that fact that I'm an atheist a cringe at "God Bless" Anything, ( and most especially anything to do with war, killing and sides) but out of respect to people believing what they like without just towing the "you must think this" line., I've not brought religion into it.

If you note, my original post was actually a question posed as "Am I the only one that thinks..." So any reply should actually have been yes or no. It turns out that no, I'm not the only one. However, I'm possibly the only one to openly say so and devil be damned.

In hindsight I should have started another thread, however, since becoming a member here nearly a decade ago, and being actively involved in the community of the .org since then I didn't realise, not had read anywhere that certain threads were off limit to discussion.

In future, I will start a new thread if there's the slightest chance that opsting in the original thread might offend those with delicate constitutions. Unless it's someone getting offended on someone else's behalf. Then, I'm afraid it's no going to happen.

Gone fishing...

C

Im offended because my post got left in the original thread when it should have been moved to this one

Only joking

Cab

[dizzyblonde]

Now then, as this is now a thread for conversation and debate.
I'm not overly keen on seeing any commemoration of war, loss, terrorisation, bombing, invasions, be it 9/11 or WW2.

I live in a multi cultural household, my partner is Greek Cypriot whose family had 24 hrs to get out of their property or be shot in 1974, the war continues. Two Uncles were killed, his father in the army, no doubt with a conflict in his own mind as to wrong or right. Greek Cypriots are displaced the world over, and many can't go back to their homes. This 38 years later, gets very little shown as a conflct still in process...unless you have personal interest.
My grandmother is German, whose family got told they had to get out of their small holding, because the Russians were coming in WW2, as a teenage girl she hid in woods and bushes away from bombers overhead shooting at them. Only the Germans vs the rest of the world has place in our history books, what about those who were on another side of the coin....unless you purposely go to find out the information, its not given.
Another Grandparent served on HMS Hood, lost all his friends in one foul swoop, never to speak of war or his navy days ever again. Carried his feelings to the grave.

I watched 9/11 heavily pregnant, unfold before my very eyes, I found it an exceptionally dispicable affair. So many lives lost innocent lives.
Over the years, I have watched America meddle in alsorts of world affairs, be it wrong or right, people killed, displaced, need a home, they come here, people don't like it, are less tolerant. This was the case in 1974, or after WW2, but the world was a much more tolerant place. Since 9/11, the world has gone mad!

If people wish to commemorate 9/11, then they can do so, it is their personal wish. I don't, its not important, I see the scars of other such tragedies, that get un noticed. They don't get a fanfair every year in good old American style, conspiracy and other such things. I have a profound empathy with anyone that would have been involved at that time, and anyone that is still dealing with the aftermath.....but it can carry on for many many years, decades in fact, but those usually involved, don't want to remember, don't want a fanfair, and don't wish for it to be made a fuss, and if they do wish to pay a respect, do so very quietly.

I know this for a fact. I see it in my own household at certain times of the year.

[Bri w]

Originally Posted by Spank86

I simply believe that that thread may not have been the best place for its airing at least while it was still 9/11 and that the throw away line about "guff" at the end (think that was you?) was ill chosen and did more to hurt than help your point.

I respect your opinion, and it wont change my perception of any other opinions you chose to air, I just question some of the fine points in your airing of this one, hence my characterisation of some of it as "rude".

Pretty much says most of what I think but would add that the Freedom of Speech so many people shout about in defence of their right to speak also comes with the responsibility to use it wisely or risk losing that freedom.

If there is a demo in Luton by the BNP are they exercising their Freedom of Speech or inciting racial hatred? Perhaps an extreme example but the point I'm trying to make is how something is worded can determine whether it is an abuse of that Freedom. When something becomes insulting to a majority, hiding behind "Freedom of Speech" doesn't mean the comment is appropriate for that situation. Let's face it, one of our Mods on here, quite rightly, might step in if something is offensive but by doing so he/she is not censoring...

Within the bounds of common decency, and in the right thread, post away.