Direct access good or bad..... Gimme some facts!

[Sid Squid]

Bottom line: You cannot teach responsibility or experience

This may be the kiss of death but - FWIW I agree with FS, it's simply not possible, (even if it were desirable to do so, and I'm not sure it is, more later), to teach every single aspect of the disciplines necessary to succesfully ride a motorcycle, or a car, or a bicycle, or a helicopter for all I know.
When you are a novice, you will, by definition, make novices mistakes, can this realistically be avoided? I doubt it, whatever you may concentrate on and say: "This is the aspect we need to apply our teaching to", necessarily some other feature will become of less importance and not similarly weighted, possibly by not being taught it may become a "blind spot", in the understanding of drivers/riders, untaught = unimportant?
As things stand the process we have makes it quite apparrent, IMHO, that you are taught to a standard which allows you to take to the road without being an outrageous danger to either your-self or others, and that now you have a licence in your bin, you start learning that which cannot be possibly taught: experience.
I don't think it is a good idea to obsessively and in minute detail teach anything, riding included, in order to become a competent rider an individual will need to learn how it is done and reach suitable solutions to driving situations by their own process, what we really don't need is a nation of thoughtless drive by numbers automatons, when, as it inevitably will, things go tits up, we need people who have learned by experience to handle driving by reaction to circumstance, not by applying a standard fix. I fervently believe that only experience can do this.
And Prof's bang on, the present cancerous obsession with testing, more tests for this that and the other will only improve testing bureaucracy, not much else.
I think everone is going to have to accept that there is an element of risk in riding a motorcycle, (I hope you already do ), and whilst I wouldn't want to exacerbate that by filling the roads with clueless people who don't understand about road positioning, for example, what could we teach and where would it stop?
Learning to ride or drive isn't about learning how to manipulate the controls of a motor vehicle, it's about the understanding of the process, know that and you are a good rider, it can only be gained by hours in the saddle, only learnt by experience, I sincerely believe it can't be taught, at least not in manner that can readily be applied to the many that want a licence.
Fatalistic? No, I don't think so, only I've spent a lot of time doing this, I'll not claim to be an expert of any sort, but I am experienced, very, that and that only has made my riding the way it is, (I'm pleased to report that I have an enviable record of staying topside ), and in that time it's become clear to me that the reason some people stay crap riders is nothing to do with the quantity or the quality of the training they received, any deficiency in their riding is 'cos their attitude is poor.
"It" can happen to anybody, the reality is that "it" keeps happening to the same people. I don't see any amount of training helping there.

[northwind]

I totally get where you're coming from, but I think you could do more to help people get through the inexperienced phase. If you have better cornering skills, you're less likely to come off when due to a lack of experience you go into a corner too hot, for example.

There's things that can be taught, and things that can't. But I for one would like to see a bit less time spent ****ing about practicing for foot up u-turns, and a bit more spent on useful stuff. For example.

At the end of the day, most riders going onto DAS testing will do 4 days training... And I just reckon there's a hell of a lot more you can do with 4 days training that'll make new riders more able to tackle that first few dodgy months. I reckon if the riding schools have so little faith in the DAS scheme, something's not right.

Originally Posted by northwind

I totally get where you're coming from, but I think you could do more to help people get through the inexperienced phase. If you have better cornering skills, you're less likely to come off when due to a lack of experience you go into a corner too hot, for example.

Going into a corner too hot isnt due to a lack of ability to corner, its an over estimation of your own ability or a missjudgement of the corner. Both of which can still occur due to inexperience, neither of which can be overcome by training.

Originally Posted by Flamin_Squirrel

Going into a corner too hot isnt due to a lack of ability to corner, its an over estimation of your own ability or a missjudgement of the corner.........

Or rank stupidity, of course

Originally Posted by Flamin_Squirrel

Both of which can still occur due to inexperience, neither of which can be overcome by training.

And stupid people will always be stupid.

Originally Posted by Jabba-the-Hutt

Or rank stupidity, of course

And stupid people will always be stupid.

I was trying to be tactful

Did DAS January 04 after riding off-road for two years, DAS suits some people not others, what I have had on my side is 17 years of driving experience doing circa 45,000 a year, road sense is something that you can only develop through experience, if you're a complete nobber you're gonna put a 125cc through a hedge the same as you'll put a 600cc through it.

Be honest with yourself, recognise what you're good at may be clutch control, awareness, slow speed control, and practice the areas that you need to improve.

You don't evenneed to insure the bike - just have your lisence for two years...

From what you guy's have been saying I'm even more impressed with my instructor. I was the only student as he refuses to do groups (and still cost under 500), he went on in detail about why you don't ride on manhole colvers, white lines etc. Most definately didn't keep me on very straight roads, but did the whole country route twisties as well as town riding.

i suppose it just depends on how good your instructor is...

Stu

I was talking to someone who runs a riding school and her take on the matter was, "If I could make a viable business out of it, I would only teach CBT as part of DAS, not a standalone. I'd only take people over 21, with a full car license already..."

Experience is important, no doubt- but I think training does matter too. Someone who has passed a test after CBT->125 is relatively untrained. They could then wait for 2 years (perhaps not even riding a 125 in that time)and get a full bike license, without ever having any tuition on a bigger bike. Personally, I'm glad I had already had a go on a "big bike", before I drove off the garage forecourt, into the middle of a city centre.

I've also noticed a mate who did cbt->125 more reckless on a big bike to begin with; he was used to being able to wind on full throttle in the middle of town, etc. Someone who has already had a go on one (hopefully in a car park, etc. first), will at least have a healthy respect for the differences between the two.

[northwind]

Originally Posted by Flamin_Squirrel

Going into a corner too hot isnt due to a lack of ability to corner, its an over estimation of your own ability or a missjudgement of the corner.........

I never said otherwise- but it's inexperience that causes people to panic and fall off the outside, where a little more training could give them the skill they need to get around. See? That's where training can compensate for inexperience and misjudgement, by getting you out of the mess you've got yourself into.

Originally Posted by northwind

I never said otherwise- but it's inexperience that causes people to panic and fall off the outside, where a little more training could give them the skill they need to get around. See? That's where training can compensate for inexperience and misjudgement, by getting you out of the mess you've got yourself into.

The skill of not panicing is a most valid point - but that only comes with experience. It can't be trained out of you