Turning, cornering, bends etc

[Sid Squid]

'Countersteering*' = How motorbikes are steered. End of.

It is possible to provoke a change in direction of some unspecified and inaccurate sort by weighting one side or the other, but this isn't steering, and is an irrelevance that confuses and complicates.
The 'prove it to yourself' excercises that have been stated above are a good way of getting straight in your head what's happening, so I'd suggest that anyone not entirely sure what's being discussed go try them.**
Also know this; When you're at lean and established in a turn, the steering goes back to straight, the turning force is provided by the profile of the tyres, which when upright could be considered short cylinders but when at lean are in essence two cones, cones roll in circles = you turn when leant. In a constant turn you aren't doing any steering, and shouldn't be trying to either***, you get out of the turn not by stopping steering, but by steering the other way - you 'countersteer' yourself back upright again. The speedway example is not valid, that's being got through the turn in an entirely different way, that's not how it works unless sliding the back tyre significantly, and even then the steering inputs the rider is making mid turn are only those needed to change the turn, not make the turn continue.

Now the big question: Why consciously 'countersteer'? How will this benefit me?

Conscious 'countersteering' is a good thing to be familiar with, when you understand it it will add a little margin of safety to your riding, and should you decide, a dab of speed too.
How? Very simple, if you take your time over steering your bike, as you will unless you are deliberately using the steering quickly, you spend more time off the vertical, this means that any given turn will be longer, and the straight bits shorter. When you have decided to negotiate a given turn you will also have decided, whether conciously or not, on a lean angle necessary to make the turn, once that decision has been made why take any longer than is absolutely necessary to get from upright to that lean angle? As you will have noticed if you've tried the excercises for yourself, the speed at which the bike takes up a lean when you conciously make an effort to turn the 'bars quickly is very high, (this is caused by gyroscopic precession).
So, to use some easy figures, if instead of taking a second or so to get to the chosen angle you only take a half of a second, at 30mph (44fps), you will have been upright for 22 feet more, remember; lean compromises your ability to do everyting else, you can't use the power or the brakes to any great extent when leant, and the more you lean the more this is so. Now 30 mph and 22 feet don't sound like much, but if you've now the ability to make your turns in a shorter space on the road, the road just got bigger - the possibilities for positioning your bike more advantageously and maximise your forward view are increased. If your intention is to go quicker you'll now be on the throttle for another 22 feet, you'll be using the brakes 22 feet later, and when you're done with turning you'll be able to bring the bike back upright and use the throttle earlier too. None of this adds any more turning force, it doesn't make any difference to the turn that you make, all that's changed is instead of taking time in getting your lean you did it quickly.


* I don't like this word. I think it's the wrong word. You're not steering the wrong way, you're steering the way that you need to in order to go where you want, perhaps counter-intuitive steering is what it should be called, but I'll continue to use the word for the sake of simplicty.
** Find somewhere suitable, this will involve space, lots of it, and equally importantly won't involve anyone or anything else in said space.
Ride along at about 30-40 mph, relax your grip on the 'bars such that any less grip and the throttle would close, gently press on the left handlebar - you're turning the steering to the right - the bike leans and turns to the left, note the pressure required to make a significant and speedy lean and turn. Try it again pressing the right 'bar for completeness.
*** In a turn you should be as relaxed as is possible, the way many people describe this is to do 'the funky chicken' mid turn, that is waggle your elbows up and down, if you can't do this you're still steering whether by trying to turn the bars or simply by your rigid arms making unconscious steering inputs. As you are undoubtedly aware motorbikes steer themselves quite a bit, this is best demonstrated by the way the steering straightens itself when you let go of the 'bars, and is caused by the geometry of the wheel/forks/frame, particularly the trail, (but this is another story entirely, so no more now), the effect of this is that your motorbike can steer more quickly than you can and it can certainly do it more accurately - let it.

Originally Posted by Sid Squid

... the effect of this is that your motorbike can steer more quickly than you can and it can certainly do it more accurately - let it.

See, I told you... 'Herbie Theory' = the bikes, they are alive!

Just to keep pushing the CSS. This months PB (August) has a write up on it, 5 journos all went on it and sampled the lower levels and all gave it the thumbs up with scores from 10/10 to 8/10

[Sid Squid]

Read the above - much cheaper.

Originally Posted by 21QUEST

I'll have to disagree. It has been pointed out that you do it anyway so no point in over complicating things at that point.

Cheers
Ben

Yes people do it anyway - but they need to be made aware of what they're doing, why they are doing it and its results when used more effectively.

There are a lot of myths, misleading information and just plain falsehoods that have turned the subject into some long debated, oft disbelieved, action. WHen it is simply, as Sid says - how you turn a bike, end of story.

Education has got to be key in changing attitudes and perhaps increasing rider control and thereby, safety. I'm not talking long drawn out training in active coutersteering at the most basic level (though it would be nice), but clear explaination and education ahould be included as standard in my opinion.

[21QUEST]

Originally Posted by K

Yes people do it anyway - but they need to be made aware of what they're doing, why they are doing it and its results when used more effectively.

There are a lot of myths, misleading information and just plain falsehoods that have turned the subject into some long debated, oft disbelieved, action. WHen it is simply, as Sid says - how you turn a bike, end of story.

Education has got to be key in changing attitudes and perhaps increasing rider control and thereby, safety. I'm not talking long drawn out training in active coutersteering at the most basic level (though it would be nice), but clear explaination and education ahould be included as standard in my opinion.

I'm totally in agreement with you that we should be taught to actively counter-steer. The bit I'm woried about question is 'at what point' and maybe 'how deep'

What I'm trying to say is that it is possible for leaner/new riders to be overwhelmed by the whole thing. That may be counter productive to what we may be trying to achieve .

Some people have plenty to think about trying to figure out the controls and you want to explain counter steering to them. To me that would make them more of a danger to themselves at the very least.
I'm only saying that we need to be carefully.

Take me for an example , never been on a bike. Infact I used to be scared of bike when I was liitle lad(don't ask) but my CBT instructor couldn't believe I had never been on a bike. Everything came quite easy with me and infact had to tell me to speed up a litle on the slow control.

Two other lads. One would know his **** from his elbow(no offence to him) while the other pretended to know all there was to know about bikes(apparently had a KR1-S ?) but in reality he knew sweet FA. He was easily confused and couldn't grasp the easiest of things.

There was no doubt in my mind what the result of my test would be but we have to cater for whole lot of different people. Once the head is gone then nothing else matters.


Reminds me that I still have found the time to take some extra training. I feel I have reached a plateau ith my riding .

Cheers
Ben

[Stu]

The reason I would vote for 'at the CBT' is because that could be the end of all training for some people who want to ride at more than 15mph.
I passed my DAS test without having received any training/explanation on counterstreering until this thread.
I think a simple explanation of - below 15mph you steer left to turn left, above 15 you put a bit of pressure on the left bar away from you to start leaning to the left and therefore turn left. This would help a lot of people who are desperately try to shift their weight etc to start/stop the lean which results in countersteering anyway but without realising it.