Riding Position how to, and how not too - SV650.org

DarrenSV650S · 31-12-06, 09:16 PM

This has been unashamedly stolen from another forum,but thought it soo good was worth copying to here...
(P.S. mods could this be a sticky?)

Riding Position how to, and how not too...!

Guys & Gals,

After much debate about riding position, and how people want to improve their riding, and particulalry their riding in corner, or in their quest to get their knee down, I've had several requests on how to do body position and how not too... So I've got the bike out of the garage (for the first time in 9 months ) , and taken these piccys.

Now I need to make a few provisos about this article. Firstly, everyone has their own individual riding style, what will feel good too you, etc. I am in no way trying to change this, however as many of you know I'm a very big fan of California Superbike School and have been through the entire course, and additionally completed several day 4 sessions on a 1-2-1 basis. Now if you were to go through the school yourselves, they would overhaul your body position to something similiar to this, so for those of you that can't afford the 1200 quid to go through the entire school programme, you may find this article of use. This will not however, ever replace the school programme, and if you can do it, I'd reccomend you do.

Secondly, this article is only in particularly talking about how to ride fast, either for fast road, or for track days. You couldn't and wouldn't want to ride like this for normal everyday riding, so please don't try as you'll be very knackered. Also riding as shown properly, is very hard work, so be warned.....

Ok, we're going to split this article into two stages. Stage 1 will be showing the common riding mistakes many riders make. I will post photos to describe the problem, pointing out specific areas that are wrong. Following on from this, I will post pictures on good body position and photos showing that too. Hopefull everyone will be able to tell the difference.....

Bad riding position

This image shows most riders normal riding position, or at least those who are fairly new to riding. Please note on this image two fundamental problems. 1) Body not right back to the rear of the seat, and secondly poor foot position, with the balls of the feet not being placed on the pegs.

Picture 2 shows how many riders ride right upto the tank. This position is fine for normal road riding, however, when you lean off, tends to make riders twist around the tank.

Picture 3 shows tank rotation. The rider moves body to the side, in this picture to the right, in order to be able to lean off. Rider rotates around tank, and does not have a good grip on outside of the tank, specifically the cutout is not used. See the large space between the leg and the tank.

Consequences of poor upper body position as seen from behind. (please note I have over exaggerated this a little but is still fairly typical of many riders). Rider is rotating around the tank, and has poor grip on bike with legs, is therefore required to hold onto bars quite hard. Note how twisted the rider body is, which puts unwanted pressure on inside bar

Poor twisted body position as seen from the front. Note how the rider has only slightly bent forearms? This means the rider is holding onto that inner (right hand here) bar too frimly, and is putting in an unneccesary countersteer.

Badly positioned foot. (well not really, but there is a point here). Because the rider here here is not hooked into the tank on the outer side, the rider is taking a very large percentage of their weight on the inside peg. This usually results in the rider having acchy knees.

Picture of outer foot. Note that rider isn't sat on balls of feet on peg, and because the rider has no grip onto the tank, is carrying virtually no weight.

Good Body positioning

Picture shows correct body position for down straights etc. Unfortuantely for me, I'm 6'1" which makes my life hard. Please note here however, firstly rider is positioned to back of the seat, and secondly, rider has balls of feet on the pegs.

Picture shows riding gripping the tank for braking etc. Is possibly one of the hardest things to achieve, but is crucial for proper braking, and riding position. Also note the gap between rider and tank, rider is sat to back of seat, and has about 1 pack of ciggies between rider and tank.

Picture shows good body positioned whilst leaned off the bike. Specifically important points to note are a) body sat right back in seat, b), forearm bent to 90 degrees, c) foot position on peg (though I have more detailed shot of this below.

This picture shows good body position whilst leant off from the front of the bike. A general rule of thumb is that you should be able to see the chin bar of your helmet in the bottom of the mirror. Also note that the forearm is straight and at 90 degress to the body.

Image shoes two things, importantly the body is in a straight line, which means that the riders inner arm is not putting any unwanted countersteering through the bars. Image also shows the correct amount of **** of the seat, i.e half your ****.

Image shows correct body position, and importantly both flat forearm, 90 degrees to the body, but also outer forearm, resting on the tank.

Image show same shot, but taken from above. note forearm resting on the top of the tank.

Image shows correct knee position wedged into the tank. This is probably one of the most important aspects of leaning off, and without this, the rider will take either large amounts of weight through either the bars, (which is negative to the bikes handling, and often the cause of ineffective steering in tightening corners), or through the inside foot, (which gives achy knees)

Image shows the correct foot position for your outside foot. Note how it is twisted so that you can power through your foot, and wedge your knee into the side of the tank. Your outside foot, should take a large percentage of your body weight when cornering.
This is only possible through correct foot placement, and having your knee wedged against the tank..

Image shows how rider has his inside foot positioned. Note that the sole of his foot is wedged against the side of the frame/footpeg, and that he has only have a small amount of weight through this foot. Rider used to have foot on the end of the peg, which is also acceptable, however, he went through toesliders to quickly due to corner speeds and lean angles, so CSS moved him to here.

Image shows same foot position, but from behind, to show how he wedges his foot against the pegs/frame. Also notice that rider is still on the balls of feet, to aid with feeling..

This is really the ultimate test of wether a rider is locked into the bike properly or not. Note the rider has no hands on the bars at all, and is using the outside leg and knee wedged into the tank, plus some weight on the inner foot. The rider in this picture is leaned of the bike correctly. (Important Saftey Note: please, please do not try to attempt this whilst riding, if you do, and you crash or fall off, please don't blame me. This is a static exercise only)

Happy cornering.

21QUEST · 31-12-06, 09:44 PM

Good post DarrenSV650S.

I've seen it before(posted I think by lukemiller or weasel). A couple of stuff in there made a difference to bits in my riding I wasn't happy with

.
I must add nothing to do with getting my knee down but tried a few of the tips/pointers and helped me with feelng more comfortable with left handers.

Ben

31-12-06, 09:56 PM

Some interesting stuff to try there.

I notice that I always have my feet waaaayyy forward on the pegs. Even further forward than in the first pictures above. I first started riding on motocross bikes as a kid and was told to put my feet forward on the pegs so that the peg pushed up against the step of the heel if you know what I mean? I don't need to move my foot to change down or apply the rear brake.

I have messed about with putting the ball of my feel on the pegs but it feels like it could slide off easy...?

31-12-06, 10:37 PM

clicky

still good though

31-12-06, 11:32 PM

Yea seen it before and still cant get my knee down

01-01-07, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrenSV650S

... So I've got the bike out of the garage (for the first time in 9 months ) and taken these piccys.

Doesn't inspire much confidence!

21QUEST · 01-01-07, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sholay

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrenSV650S

... So I've got the bike out of the garage (for the first time in 9 months ) and taken these piccys.

Doesn't inspire much confidence!

Why do you say that?

Ben

01-01-07, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 21QUEST

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sholay

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrenSV650S

... So I've got the bike out of the garage (for the first time in 9 months ) and taken these piccys.

Doesn't inspire much confidence!

Why do you say that?

Ben

I suppose that not having the bike out for 9 months doesn't mean that he hasn't ridden regularly in that time, but does suggest that he hasn't. It is also possible that he has had a very good reason not to ride in that time. Will give him the benefit of the doubt and withdraw my semi-facetious comment.

I think the article is quite interesting, although for day to day riding I don't position myself like that.

northwind · 01-01-07, 04:08 PM

It's good that. And it keeps some perspective too: "You couldn't and wouldn't want to ride like this for normal everyday riding, so please don't try as you'll be very knackered. Also riding as shown properly, is very hard work, so be warned..." Some CSS graduates/enthusiasts go away with a messianistic zeal that says "Ride like this, all the time, to do otherwise is WRONG!", it's good to not have this one lumbered with that.

There's a guy on Visordown- or used to be- who'd pop up in any thread that had a picture and say "Your riding position is awful", and when anyone disagreed, would say "Well, obviously you know better than Keith Code and Andy Ibbott"... Funnily enough, that guy used to ride for 50 miles every dry weekend and do some trackdays

02-01-07, 01:50 PM

Excellent post. I have to admit that when doing kneedowns my knees really do hurt for a while afterward, this is due to my bad foot positioning on the pegs and also leaning right up against the tank. Will try these when the weather is a little less slippy.

31-12-06, 09:16 PM	#1
DarrenSV650S Member Mega Poster Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Dundee Posts: 4,404	Riding Position how to, and how not too This has been unashamedly stolen from another forum,but thought it soo good was worth copying to here... (P.S. mods could this be a sticky?) Riding Position how to, and how not too...! Guys & Gals, After much debate about riding position, and how people want to improve their riding, and particulalry their riding in corner, or in their quest to get their knee down, I've had several requests on how to do body position and how not too... So I've got the bike out of the garage (for the first time in 9 months ) , and taken these piccys. Now I need to make a few provisos about this article. Firstly, everyone has their own individual riding style, what will feel good too you, etc. I am in no way trying to change this, however as many of you know I'm a very big fan of California Superbike School and have been through the entire course, and additionally completed several day 4 sessions on a 1-2-1 basis. Now if you were to go through the school yourselves, they would overhaul your body position to something similiar to this, so for those of you that can't afford the 1200 quid to go through the entire school programme, you may find this article of use. This will not however, ever replace the school programme, and if you can do it, I'd reccomend you do. Secondly, this article is only in particularly talking about how to ride fast, either for fast road, or for track days. You couldn't and wouldn't want to ride like this for normal everyday riding, so please don't try as you'll be very knackered. Also riding as shown properly, is very hard work, so be warned..... Ok, we're going to split this article into two stages. Stage 1 will be showing the common riding mistakes many riders make. I will post photos to describe the problem, pointing out specific areas that are wrong. Following on from this, I will post pictures on good body position and photos showing that too. Hopefull everyone will be able to tell the difference..... Bad riding position This image shows most riders normal riding position, or at least those who are fairly new to riding. Please note on this image two fundamental problems. 1) Body not right back to the rear of the seat, and secondly poor foot position, with the balls of the feet not being placed on the pegs. Picture 2 shows how many riders ride right upto the tank. This position is fine for normal road riding, however, when you lean off, tends to make riders twist around the tank. Picture 3 shows tank rotation. The rider moves body to the side, in this picture to the right, in order to be able to lean off. Rider rotates around tank, and does not have a good grip on outside of the tank, specifically the cutout is not used. See the large space between the leg and the tank. Consequences of poor upper body position as seen from behind. (please note I have over exaggerated this a little but is still fairly typical of many riders). Rider is rotating around the tank, and has poor grip on bike with legs, is therefore required to hold onto bars quite hard. Note how twisted the rider body is, which puts unwanted pressure on inside bar Poor twisted body position as seen from the front. Note how the rider has only slightly bent forearms? This means the rider is holding onto that inner (right hand here) bar too frimly, and is putting in an unneccesary countersteer. Badly positioned foot. (well not really, but there is a point here). Because the rider here here is not hooked into the tank on the outer side, the rider is taking a very large percentage of their weight on the inside peg. This usually results in the rider having acchy knees. Picture of outer foot. Note that rider isn't sat on balls of feet on peg, and because the rider has no grip onto the tank, is carrying virtually no weight. Good Body positioning Picture shows correct body position for down straights etc. Unfortuantely for me, I'm 6'1" which makes my life hard. Please note here however, firstly rider is positioned to back of the seat, and secondly, rider has balls of feet on the pegs. Picture shows riding gripping the tank for braking etc. Is possibly one of the hardest things to achieve, but is crucial for proper braking, and riding position. Also note the gap between rider and tank, rider is sat to back of seat, and has about 1 pack of ciggies between rider and tank. Picture shows good body positioned whilst leaned off the bike. Specifically important points to note are a) body sat right back in seat, b), forearm bent to 90 degrees, c) foot position on peg (though I have more detailed shot of this below. This picture shows good body position whilst leant off from the front of the bike. A general rule of thumb is that you should be able to see the chin bar of your helmet in the bottom of the mirror. Also note that the forearm is straight and at 90 degress to the body. Image shoes two things, importantly the body is in a straight line, which means that the riders inner arm is not putting any unwanted countersteering through the bars. Image also shows the correct amount of ** of the seat, i.e half your **. Image shows correct body position, and importantly both flat forearm, 90 degrees to the body, but also outer forearm, resting on the tank. Image show same shot, but taken from above. note forearm resting on the top of the tank. Image shows correct knee position wedged into the tank. This is probably one of the most important aspects of leaning off, and without this, the rider will take either large amounts of weight through either the bars, (which is negative to the bikes handling, and often the cause of ineffective steering in tightening corners), or through the inside foot, (which gives achy knees) Image shows the correct foot position for your outside foot. Note how it is twisted so that you can power through your foot, and wedge your knee into the side of the tank. Your outside foot, should take a large percentage of your body weight when cornering. This is only possible through correct foot placement, and having your knee wedged against the tank.. Image shows how rider has his inside foot positioned. Note that the sole of his foot is wedged against the side of the frame/footpeg, and that he has only have a small amount of weight through this foot. Rider used to have foot on the end of the peg, which is also acceptable, however, he went through toesliders to quickly due to corner speeds and lean angles, so CSS moved him to here. Image shows same foot position, but from behind, to show how he wedges his foot against the pegs/frame. Also notice that rider is still on the balls of feet, to aid with feeling.. This is really the ultimate test of wether a rider is locked into the bike properly or not. Note the rider has no hands on the bars at all, and is using the outside leg and knee wedged into the tank, plus some weight on the inner foot. The rider in this picture is leaned of the bike correctly. (Important Saftey Note: please, please do not try to attempt this whilst riding, if you do, and you crash or fall off, please don't blame me. This is a static exercise only) Happy cornering.

01-01-07, 04:08 PM	#9
northwind Moderator Mega Poster Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In the garage where I belong Posts: 17,082	It's good that. And it keeps some perspective too: "You couldn't and wouldn't want to ride like this for normal everyday riding, so please don't try as you'll be very knackered. Also riding as shown properly, is very hard work, so be warned..." Some CSS graduates/enthusiasts go away with a messianistic zeal that says "Ride like this, all the time, to do otherwise is WRONG!", it's good to not have this one lumbered with that. There's a guy on Visordown- or used to be- who'd pop up in any thread that had a picture and say "Your riding position is awful", and when anyone disagreed, would say "Well, obviously you know better than Keith Code and Andy Ibbott"... Funnily enough, that guy used to ride for 50 miles every dry weekend and do some trackdays __________________ "We are the angry mob, we read the papers every day We like what we like, we hate what we hate But we're oh so easily swayed"

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31-12-06, 09:56 PM	#3
Toypop Guest Posts: n/a	Some interesting stuff to try there. I notice that I always have my feet waaaayyy forward on the pegs. Even further forward than in the first pictures above. I first started riding on motocross bikes as a kid and was told to put my feet forward on the pegs so that the peg pushed up against the step of the heel if you know what I mean? I don't need to move my foot to change down or apply the rear brake. I have messed about with putting the ball of my feel on the pegs but it feels like it could slide off easy...?

31-12-06, 10:37 PM	#4
weazelz Guest Posts: n/a	clicky still good though

31-12-06, 11:32 PM	#5
kwak zzr Guest Posts: n/a	Yea seen it before and still cant get my knee down

02-01-07, 01:50 PM	#10
DanAbnormal Guest Posts: n/a	Excellent post. I have to admit that when doing kneedowns my knees really do hurt for a while afterward, this is due to my bad foot positioning on the pegs and also leaning right up against the tank. Will try these when the weather is a little less slippy.