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Old 06-04-22, 09:03 PM   #11
Ruffy
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Default Re: Non Fungible Tokens

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Originally Posted by daktulos View Post
... It's basically a decentralised ledger which permits trade between remote individuals. ...
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... Why do we need a decentralised ledger to permit trade?
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It doesn't permit trade, ...
Aargh, I was just picking up on your words - my head hurts! I'm not claiming to have any understanding or expertise on this! I'm genuinely confused and asking questions to try to understand. Unfortunately, all I get to is "dot com bubble" parallels being created in my head when I think about it - just a hyped idea that actually isn't that different when you strip away the 'new'. I'd be happy to learn I'm wrong but I'm still healthily skeptical and needing to be educated.

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you can still meet up with someone and exchange goods. Money permits you to do it remotely, but relies on the government/central bank to guarantee its value.
I'm not convinced that the reliance on government/central bank is actually necessary anymore, ever since fractional reserve banking was allowed and 'fiat currency' introduced? The system runs pretty close to purely on confidence. We've been programmed to think we still need a central reserve to back it up but already in reality there isn't a big enough reserve so we could conceptually just get rid of it if we could control our fear of losing out. (That's why there's always problems when 'runs' occur when everyone wants 'their money' in a crisis - there simply isn't the actual prime reserve available to back up all the money in circulation.)

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The blockchain gets rid of that central control and lets individuals trade without meeting. ...

The difference is that a handwritten receipt is meaningless unless you saw someone write it out, and even then it's your word against theirs.

If you showed the IOU to a court, who would they believe? With the blockchain, there are thousands (millions?) of people around the world who can all independently validate and guarantee your IOU is genuine.
I find it intriguing that the majority of current civil contract arrangements are managed perfectly well by reliance on signed documents like contracts, and often done remotely. It's not really centrally controlled, just centrally referenced maybe.

It seems quite sad that there is such a high level of assumed erosion of trust that it's alleged we need a wholesale different form of record keeping. Are we making a mountain out of a molehill?

Above all, I don't understand how proof of ownership preserves value in any system. Buying something at price £x doesn't mean it will always be worth that. Market forces and fashions don't disappear in the digital world. Of course revealing a fake will dramatically affect value (and maybe blockchain helps with preventing fakes/fraud?) but the risk of a genuine NFT losing (changing) value is just as real as a physical item isn't it?

It's quite a philosophical challenge isn't it - ultimately, value can only be established by trading agreement where two or more people agree what is a fair exchange: Do we really need to relate everything to a common reference (which is all that 'money' does in essence)? To illustrate that, how often do we hear "how much is my SV worth?" One of the usual answers is "whatever someone will offer to pay you for it". Does it really matter what all the previous (or future SV sales will be?

I'm not a total luddite. I can see vast potential merit in better digital certification and signing becoming more widepread - to reduce email spam and risk of online credit card fraud for example - but this whole "blockchain" thing ... nope, still don't get it.
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Old 06-04-22, 09:05 PM   #12
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Default Re: Non Fungible Tokens

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WTF are you lot talking about....
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I'm with you here Martin!
I need editors like you - brevity not one of my strong points!
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Old 07-04-22, 06:23 AM   #13
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Default Re: Non Fungible Tokens

Ruffy, I'm not exactly an expert either, and please excuse any inaccurate wording, but I'm trying.

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I find it intriguing that the majority of current civil contract arrangements are managed perfectly well by reliance on signed documents like contracts, and often done remotely. It's not really centrally controlled, just centrally referenced maybe.
The contracts are usually made between people who know each other. Signatures are also often witnessed to provide additional reassurance of trust.

Quote:
It seems quite sad that there is such a high level of assumed erosion of trust that it's alleged we need a wholesale different form of record keeping. Are we making a mountain out of a molehill?
I don't think blockchain is designed to replace any of it, but if you want to exchange something with someone anonymous you've never met before, how confident would you be?

Quote:
Above all, I don't understand how proof of ownership preserves value in any system. Buying something at price £x doesn't mean it will always be worth that.
The value of crypto-currency is based on its rarity - the total amount of available goes up as it's mined and down as it's lost (which happens a lot). It's better than physical currency because it can't be forged, is often traceable and all transactions are logged and verifiable.

The value of a NFT is based on hype, but essentially it's the same thing - it has rarity, so has value to someone, and that value will change. What the blockchain allows is for everyone to agree the ownership of something completely virtual, not what it's worth.

At the end of the day, a ledger doesn't say anything about the value of something, just how it's been transferred. If I'm buying something from someone anonymous on the Internet, they can still vanish without fulfilling the order, but they can't claim I didn't pay them.
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Old 07-04-22, 08:07 PM   #14
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Default Re: Non Fungible Tokens

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Ruffy, I'm not exactly an expert either, and please excuse any inaccurate wording, but I'm trying.
No apology needed. You're helping me - thank you, it's appreciated. I'm pushing back strongly but it's not to demean or offend you, only to draw out detail to educate me. Please accept my apologies if I came across as having a go at you - I do try not to 'shoot the messenger' but often fail miserably!

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The contracts are usually made between people who know each other. Signatures are also often witnessed to provide additional reassurance of trust.

I don't think blockchain is designed to replace any of it, but if you want to exchange something with someone anonymous you've never met before, how confident would you be?
I partly agree. There's sometimes a relationship of sorts but I'd suggest many contracts are still between parties who have little true knowledge of each other really. That is a weakness that opens the system to scamming by fraudsters. Yes, 'caveat emptor' ('buyer beware') is always good advice before parting with your "hard-earned"!

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The value of crypto-currency is based on its rarity - the total amount of available goes up as it's mined and down as it's lost (which happens a lot). It's better than physical currency because it can't be forged, is often traceable and all transactions are logged and verifiable.

The value of a NFT is based on hype, but essentially it's the same thing - it has rarity, so has value to someone, and that value will change. What the blockchain allows is for everyone to agree the ownership of something completely virtual, not what it's worth.

At the end of the day, a ledger doesn't say anything about the value of something, just how it's been transferred. If I'm buying something from someone anonymous on the Internet, they can still vanish without fulfilling the order, but they can't claim I didn't pay them.
That makes sense to me. I think it may have been my main mis-understanding - that blockchain somehow defines value for stuff. I do see usefulness in being able to better prove transactions that have taken place - anonymous or untraceable exchange does risk fraud & other crime. But I still wouldn't call it revolutionary in the way some seem to tout it (as above, my criticism not aimed at you daktulos). And when I say that, it's important to be aware that I'm not a particular fan of the current mainstream banking system either - I'm wholly enthusiastic about seeing improvement there.

I'm left wondering about the ability to hack the chain to forge things and I'm also now wondering if the ledger always needs to be an inefficient complete 'chain' or if instead it could be innovated to be a series of uniquely linked lists that could be processed separately and far more efficiently to an extent, but I don't really know enough about modern computer technology to sensibly go down that rabbit hole...
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RIP SV650 X curvy, crashed and written off December 2019.
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Old 08-04-22, 06:17 AM   #15
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Default Re: Non Fungible Tokens

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I'm left wondering about the ability to hack the chain to forge things and I'm also now wondering if the ledger always needs to be an inefficient complete 'chain' or if instead it could be innovated to be a series of uniquely linked lists that could be processed separately and far more efficiently to an extent, but I don't really know enough about modern computer technology to sensibly go down that rabbit hole...
The way it works is that when someone generates a block, some sort of consensus is gained and everyone starts working on the new block. It is possible that two people generate different blocks, but one of them would be abandoned.

It only works because the generation of a block is so difficult. If it was easier, I think there'd be a chance of hacking it, but don't know the protocol in enough detail.

I think the problem is, if it's trivial to create a block (which would make it environmentally better) there'd need to be some sort of central control to protect it - perhaps an authority with a private key. But, central control is really what the blockchain was designed to avoid.
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