View Full Version : New fork internals on the market
There seems to be new stuff for SV coming out from an Italian company CARPIMOTO
Check them out here...
http://www.carpimoto.it/content/prod/l_IT/s_1_Home/br_5_Suzuki/bi_66_SV_650__02/sp_1/pr_30019_Cartuccia_Forcella_Matris_per_Suzuki_SV_6 50_S_99_02.htm
http://www.carpimoto.it/Images/Products/Detail/m/mt_F05SE_D.jpg
New SV fork internal replacement
Alpinestarhero
26-12-07, 09:20 PM
Whats special about it? apart from being painted gold and black
Matt
yorkie_chris
26-12-07, 09:24 PM
Reckons to be a proper cartridge I think, still going to be more expensive than going to gixxer forks
Yes it's cartridge internals with new springs and oil for €420. Always another option. Seems a simpler route to better suspension than the Gixxer mod.
yorkie_chris
26-12-07, 09:35 PM
Definately an interesting option
Alpinestarhero
26-12-07, 09:42 PM
Yes it's cartridge internals with new springs and oil for €420. Always another option. Seems a simpler route to better suspension than the Gixxer mod.
Definatly; I would rather modify what I have already than to go through alot of work with swapping front ends. I like the idea of replacing my current springs with ohlins progressives
These ones look cool too
Matt
PDQ seem to be the sole UK distributor. It does say they are for the naked bike though.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j5/Lissasv650/forkkitmatris.jpg
It does say they're for naked bikes, but the product list contains the cbr, r1, r6, zx6 and 10, gsxr1000...
It does say they're for naked bikes, but the product list contains the cbr, r1, r6, zx6 and 10, gsxr1000...
Yes, but they have a different kit designation. All the SE kits are listed next to naked bikes, but are the forks different on the naked and faired SV's?
Blue_SV650S
26-12-07, 11:04 PM
Looks like they have no external damping adjustment?!?! ...
Looks like they have no external damping adjustment?!?! ...
No, it seems you'd have to adjust the shim stack to suit your requirements.
northwind
26-12-07, 11:37 PM
Just the Matris kit isn't it? Been around for a while, those, though not for the curvy.
yorkie_chris
27-12-07, 12:44 AM
How would these compare to the race tech emulators?
they should be better if set up right.instead pop up washer on emulators for one side only(compression)this have shim stack on both side.shim stack is easy to change to get different damping.unfortunately you have to take them out to do so.low speed is not adjustable externally.
your fork tube is still piston pushing oil around.
there is another valve made in Australia that has shim stack,but only one side.
neither is cartridge.cartridge is what gsxr forks have.all separate unit to control damping.
Blue_SV650S
27-12-07, 01:02 AM
No, it seems you'd have to adjust the shim stack to suit your requirements.
How would these compare to the race tech emulators?
Ok, so to my mind - and I have only glanced at this not fully digested - the 'drop-in cartridge' is a proper cartridge internal, with proper shim stacks setup (on both compression and rebound). In that respect these are better than the emulator alternative as if you can get them set up how you like (no easy task as everyone is different) should work really well - by virtue of what they are, the emulators will never be as 100% as 'good' as well set up cartridge. Also the cartridge is no-messing/no-brainer to install.
However, not being adjustable - without changing shim stack*, is a major problem. And in this respect slightly inferior to the emulator solution ... ok, so you have to keep taking the emulator out and perhaps changing oil to get it just as you like, but it IS a DIY job.
NEITHER solution allows you to fine tune for specific tracks/roads/ambient temperatures etc without disassembly ...
At £300 (1/2 as much again as emulators and making GIXER swap very viable) - I'd want adjustability as well as cartridge 'ride'!
*in reality not doable DIY as you need the shims (or does it come with a whole pile of them??), knowledge and tools - making it an expensive pro-only job to change damping to suit you
why would they be inferior to the emulator???
both you have to take out to adjust.
shim stack will use thin oil,which is better.so you dont have to worry about temperature part and changing oil.if done right shim stack will be fine for most people.
changing shims is not big deal,it is easy.hard part is knowing which ones to use to get what you want.
I want to buy set of this and test it,maybe start using in future but they dont sell valves only.you have to buy whole kit.I dont need springs and fancy preload adjusters and see no point buying something I already have.that is downside to me.
northwind
27-12-07, 01:49 AM
Ah, you got a no then? I've not had a response from either as yet. Did you consider the old "I'm thinking of stocking your items but I want to try them out first to make sure they're up to scratch" line :mrgreen:
no,I am not interested in making stuff up even tough that would be really close :)
Robw#70
27-12-07, 06:54 PM
Apologies for the poor pics, only had my phone on me, but here's the valve:-
http://muchos.co.uk/members/robw/IMAGE_218 (Large).jpg
http://muchos.co.uk/members/robw/IMAGE_217 (Large).jpg
http://muchos.co.uk/members/robw/IMAGE_216 (Large).jpg
Ive not fitted any yet, but we've sold loads and had good reports back from everyone using them.
The Shim stacks are two stage and I presume the rebound stack is pretty light as its operated by a vacuum and it still relys ( a bit) on the orifice damping of the original damper rod.
The Shim stacks are two stage and I presume the rebound stack is pretty light as its operated by a vacuum and it still relys ( a bit) on the orifice damping of the original damper rod.
from picture it looks like they closing rebound hole.it falls right between 2 O-rings effectively making it useless.
what is recommended oil?
Robw#70
27-12-07, 11:28 PM
Matris S cartridge oil, they use thier own oil for all thier cartridges, the R oil for thier 25mm cartridges is under a 5wt, but reacts differently to other oils a bit like racetech's US-1, I think the S is a 5/7.5wt
And how much would a front fork upgrade kit like this cost Robw#70?
Robw#70
28-12-07, 06:52 PM
£300 so £100 more than racetech for parts, but easier to fit so possible saving paying someone to fit them
Blue_SV650S
28-12-07, 07:52 PM
why would they be inferior to the emulator???
both you have to take out to adjust....
I haven't seen one of the new cartridges in real life or taken one apart, but I do know that taking 'normal' cartridges apart (to adjust them) requires special tools, and obviously new shims - and knowledge of what you need to do/change. The emulators are adjustable via a nut/bolt arrangement, this can be done without specialist tools or much brainpower. So although BOTH will need removal, the emulators are DIY adjustable (winding up the emulator preload is in no way as 'adjustable' as changing the proper shim stacks, but it is all you can do).
To summarise, its the non DIY (realistically) nature of adjusting the drop-in cartridges that I am picking fault at.
If you are lucky that the cartridges are perfect first time, then great; but chances are they won't be (how can they be?!?! ;))!! That said, I am sure even the default setting (which is unlikely to be the 'best' for an individual) is better than stock SV forks!! :mrgreen:
yorkie_chris
28-12-07, 07:54 PM
£300
Gixxer forks are still cheaper, with lots of adjustability without stripping anything down
I haven't seen one of the new cartridges in real life or taken one apart, but I do know that taking 'normal' cartridges apart (to adjust them) requires special tools,
you missing one thing.matris kit is not cartridge,even tough it is advertised as cartridge on some sites.
it is just valve and changing shims does not require any special tools.think of it as emulator where instead pop up plate loaded with spring there are shims.
Blue_SV650S
28-12-07, 08:34 PM
you missing one thing.matris kit is not cartridge,even tough it is advertised as cartridge on some sites.
it is just valve and changing shims does not require any special tools.think of it as emulator where instead pop up plate loaded with spring there are shims.
Ah right ... like I said initially, it was only a fleeting pass, I got the wrong end of the stick then ...
I'll have a proper look at some point* 8)
*when I can be 4ssed/exceptional bored! - as its idle interest only -> like I am not gonna put my hand in my pocket for some either way! :D
Fraser24
29-12-07, 09:20 AM
I'm running standard 96, VFR750 cartidges with SV Spring , 5wt oil + 118mm preload spacer ( incl washers ) with 130mm air gap. It works great ! Only bit of mod to fit was drilling and tapping top caps 10 x 1.25 to accept cartridge rods. But a lot of getting the settings just right. Total travel 134mm incl 12 mm hydraulic bottoming. 32mm static sag with 48 mm rider sag. Bit soft for some folks but ideal for the crap road surfaces where I live .If anyone wants more details please PM .Fraser
has anybody on here tried these non adjustable cartridge kits from Andreani?
http://www.andreanigroup.com/prodotti.aspx
seen tested here by an italian mag http://www.motociclismo.it/edisport/moto/notizie.nsf/ElencoNewsPub/35E8D4F4E1C89EFBC1256E060035152B?OpenDocument
assuming that both the Andreani and the Matris are well adjusted and set up, does the fact that the Andreani is a cartridge instantly make it better or i suppose my question is "why cartridges?" what is wrong with doing it as Matris have done it? Haven't they just used the inner fork tube as a big cartridge-excuse my ignorance:confused:
traxxion has full cartridge(AK20)that is adjustable for rebound but not compression.
compression is set.
matris is more like race tech emulator.
Ceri JC
17-11-08, 09:50 AM
I fitted my Matris fork internals to my SV650s K4 at the weekend. Fitting was pretty easy once I had my head round how the internals all fit in. I was vastly faster on the second fork than the first, I reckon I could do the job in a third of the time now (and get less covered in rancid old oil). Still, the nature of experience I suppose. I dropped the forks by 1.5mm at the same time. Haven't had a chance to really put them through their paces on a sunny afternoon on an a-road yet, but based on my quick shakedown ride yesterday and 220 mile commute this morning, it performed vastly better than stock*. They seemed overly stiff at first, especially compared to the old internals, but soon bedded in.
No scope for adjustment of compression/rebound unless you want to fiddle with shim stacks, which was beyond my abilites (and the stock settings felt fine to me in any event). Preload adjustment requires a 24mm socket/spanner, but seems much firmer and less likely to vibrate looser the way my stock ones had a habit of doing.
*Which I'd be appalled if they hadn't, given that the stock ones in my forks had seen 44K miles of use already. ;)
Wow, I'm amazed that people are still following this thread. I'm glad you tried them out and reported on your experience mounting them Ceri JC. Please follow up a report after a few more miles experience with the new front internals. Did you also do something to the rear shock or a re you still on your stock setup? This is something which cncerns me. I would like to improve on the stock suspension but wouldn't like to disturb the balance of the bike. Which rear shocks fit the SV and keep the same measurements? Maybe this is a good excuse to the start a new thread or maybe there already is.
Ceri JC
17-11-08, 10:27 AM
Wow, I'm amazed that people are still following this thread. I'm glad you tried them out and reported on your experience mounting them Ceri JC. Please follow up a report after a few more miles experience with the new front internals. Did you also do something to the rear shock or a re you still on your stock setup? This is something which cncerns me. I would like to improve on the stock suspension but wouldn't like to disturb the balance of the bike. Which rear shocks fit the SV and keep the same measurements? Maybe this is a good excuse to the start a new thread or maybe there already is.
I fitted a (new) Nitron rear shock, designed for the SV650s K4 and set up for my weight (16st) around this time last year. It was vastly better, although it did show up the weaknesses in the front. My first impressions are that the rear shock did more to improve the bike than the forks internals have, but then the stock shock was dangerously bad. By 28K miles, it had nearly had me off twice entirely due to the shock underperforming on 'spirited' riding. I reckon it'd be okay for commuting for a few thousand more miles though. Also, the rear shock was about £100 more than I paid for the internals. Even so, if my available budget was more than enough to pay for forks springs and gixxer shock, but less than new Nitron/Ohlins/WP shock and new fork internals, I'd suggest going for a good new rear shock and fork springs. All that assumes either you or your insurer don't fancy the gixxer front end swap of course.
I've put 16K miles on the rear shock, so I'll send it off to Nitron for a service soon. Unlike most aftermarket shocks, servicing is cheap enough to make economical sense; about £90 all in, unless it's really worn out. This was one of the main reasons for me buying it. I kept the old OE shock so will fit that for the couple of weeks whilst the new one is being overhauled if I need to use the bike. I was tempted to do both at once (replacing the serviced shock and fit internals), in order to feel the bike 'transformed'> In the end, however, I decided to postpone the rear shock service till after the fork internals were definately working fine, as I didn't want confusion as to where a problem was, if it turned out that the bike was handling funny
Will post back with opinions once I've had a chance to 'give it some' in half decent conditions. :)
I was tempted to do both at once (replacing the serviced shock and fit internals), in order to feel the bike 'transformed'> In the end, however, I decided to postpone the rear shock service till after the fork internals were definitely working fine, as I didn't want confusion as to where a problem was, if it turned out that the bike was handling funny
I like your logic, it makes good sense. Are you a technical engineer by any chance? This is what one learns to solve technical problems, being analytical and taking it one step at a time. If you're not, I must again applaud your thinking.
Ceri JC
17-11-08, 12:46 PM
I like your logic, it makes good sense. Are you a technical engineer by any chance? This is what one learns to solve technical problems, being analytical and taking it one step at a time. If you're not, I must again applaud your thinking.
Very good deduction there: I was a technical engineer in my last job, albeit a computing one, rather than a mechanical one. I think the thought process is very similar though, I see lots of analogies between working on mechanical machines and computers.
Very good deduction there: I was a technical engineer in my last job, albeit a computing one, rather than a mechanical one. I think the thought process is very similar though, I see lots of analogies between working on mechanical machines and computers.
Takes one to know one I guess! Aeronautical Radar technical officer myself.
...also if anyone's still interested in matris I found them cheaper at EUR 168 here...
http://shop.ebay.it/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38&_nkw=matris+kit+sv
http://i6.ebayimg.com/08/i/001/00/73/990c_1.JPG
I've also stumbled upon these quality items by Technoflex for the SV...
http://www.technoflex.be/en/products/road/roadproducts.htm
http://www.technoflex.be/images/products/modelb.png
Upgrade Kit for front forks without regulation. Top Quality!!
Available for:
- Honda Hornet 600 (Until 2004) - Honda CBF 600 - Suzuki SV 650 - Suzuki Bandit 600 - Kawasaki Z 750 (until 2005) - Yamaha Fazer 600
These people do some real nice looking rear shocks. Anybody here install any?
northwind
08-12-08, 07:43 PM
21Quest had a Technoflex shock i think, and I think he liked it.
svdemon
08-12-08, 07:46 PM
Any idea how much the Technoflex emulators retail at? Still something i would like to try out.
I just sent an email asking for a quote and more info. I'll post as soon I get a reply.
You might want to ask yourself so just google Technoflex out and its a site with a .nl suffix. It's in English so don't let that dissuade you.
svdemon
08-12-08, 08:16 PM
I emailed him to, just wondered if anyone had found out details. There is a link to the site on the first page of this thread.
Robw#70
08-12-08, 09:40 PM
Takes one to know one I guess! Aeronautical Radar technical officer myself.
...also if anyone's still interested in matris I found them cheaper at EUR 168 here...
http://shop.ebay.it/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38&_nkw=matris+kit+sv
http://i6.ebayimg.com/08/i/001/00/73/990c_1.JPG
This is the K kit which is essentially a spring upgrade, the bits on the bottom left are adapters to fit the springs and restrict oil flow, they're good value if your looking at fitting springs and preload adjusters to a carby
Ceri JC
09-12-08, 09:30 AM
http://i6.ebayimg.com/08/i/001/00/73/990c_1.JPG
Just a quick FYI: That's not quite the same kit as I had. The components in the bottom left hand corner were different. Mine were thinner valves with 6 holes in the top (where the oil moves through) and shim stacks in the middle.
Out of curiosity do the pointy owners experience the front 'PLONK' noise as well. Maybe since they've got preload adjustment as standard that can eliminate it? To say the truth that's what bothers me most. I know the suspension could be better than OEM on SV's as I've ridden higher spec bikes (GSXR's and Blades) so know the difference but for my type of riding I can live with what I've got as long as I remove that PLONK for now.
Ceri JC
09-12-08, 12:18 PM
Out of curiosity do the pointy owners experience the front 'PLONK' noise as well. Maybe since they've got preload adjustment as standard that can eliminate it?
I used to (with stock suspension), but only really noticed it when riding 30-40, without earplugs, over potholed roads. I'd not experienced it at higher speeds on bumpy bar-wag inducing A-roads.
Dangerous Dave
09-12-08, 12:22 PM
Out of curiosity do the pointy owners experience the front 'PLONK' noise as well.
Yes
svdemon
09-12-08, 01:00 PM
Got a reply -
"Dear Sir,
What do you mean by cartridge emulators??
Met Vriendelijke groet, Best Regards,
Hans-Dieter Fischer
Sales & Marketing Director
TechnoFlex Suspension Technology
Graafschap Hornelaan 161c
6001 AC Weert
The Netherlands
Tel: +31 (0)495 457180
Fax: +31 (0)495 539273
E: hans-dieter@technoflex.nl"
Are the technoflex items actually emulators?
Dangerous Dave
09-12-08, 01:13 PM
Matris call them flow regulators, not emulators.
Yes
Does this mean you have traded the curvy's for a pointy then as I know you love them:rolleyes:.
Yes we do get the annoying 'plunk' sound but as mentioned only at town speeds. Thought this was down to head bearings but I take it if I was to change the fork internals this will eliminate the problem as it proper winds me up as well.
Dangerous Dave
09-12-08, 04:48 PM
Does this mean you have traded the curvy's for a pointy then as I know you love them:rolleyes:.
Never, I have ridden a few Pointys and I have worked on many more.
...Thought this was down to head bearings but I take it if I was to change the fork internals this will eliminate the problem as it proper winds me up as well.
No its not the head bearings. Swapped mine for taper roller bearings thinking that that would eliminate the PLONK but wishful thinking I'm afraid as at the first pothole after the mod... PLONK! My brother changed his front springs with Ohlins and it vanished so something with the front suspension for sure. I've read from loads of people who changed the front inners that they never experienced it again. I was wondering whether the springs where somewhat short or they need more preload but when I dismantled my brother's to install the springs found everything nice and tight so never understood what caused it. BOQ?
svdemon
09-12-08, 06:04 PM
i added more oil to my forks and that got rid of the clonking. Really annoying that noise!
How much oil did you add approx?
Ceri JC
10-12-08, 05:01 PM
On a related note did you get my 2 PMs okay in the end, Zunkus? Sorry for the delay replying, I was off with flu last week.
Oh yes Thanks Ceri JC. Very well explained too. I have kept them in my information folder in case I do get to do the mod. I'm still evaluating what route to take. As I explained I'm no racer and am not having any real problems with the OEM suspension. The PLONK noise does bother me a bit, especially since my cheap Hyosung 125cc SM feels more solid over bumps (with no Plonks). I'll try adding a measured amount of oil and see if that eliminates it.
chris8886
10-12-08, 06:28 PM
No its not the head bearings. Swapped mine for taper roller bearings thinking that that would eliminate the PLONK but wishful thinking I'm afraid as at the first pothole after the mod... PLONK! My brother changed his front springs with Ohlins and it vanished so something with the front suspension for sure. I've read from loads of people who changed the front inners that they never experienced it again. I was wondering whether the springs where somewhat short or they need more preload but when I dismantled my brother's to install the springs found everything nice and tight so never understood what caused it. BOQ?
i've changed my springs for hagin ones and i still get the 'PLONK' noise :mad:
So maybe the oil is the issue. I changed my brother's springs to Ohlins and filled the oil to the specified amount and the plonk disappeared. I should have swapped those springs back before he sold that SV to a dealer!
northwind
10-12-08, 07:20 PM
Mine went away when I replaced the oil with 15W, but that could just have been a coincidence from the strip-and-build, or maybe the thicker oil just damping the sound, or somesuch. TBH I don't think there's really one cause, when I stuck the naked bike headlight on mine I got a very similiar nose from teh (broken) inner part moving in the shell, for instance.
svdemon
10-12-08, 11:40 PM
I added a bit of oil at a time until the damping felt right, the clunking stopped too which was a bonus! Just experimentation i'm afraid!
yorkie_chris
11-12-08, 03:13 AM
Adding oil makes sod all difference to the damping, by adding oil you are changing air gap and effectively spring rate.
Adding oil makes sod all difference to the damping, by adding oil you are changing air gap and effectively spring rate.
What are the effects of these on suspension then? I'm not being cocky, I'm just ignorant and trying to learn something. I'm thinking suzuki don't put in enough oil, can this be the case. I've read about loads of people having no noise from the front after just changing the oil for one reason or another.
Ceri JC
11-12-08, 10:29 AM
What are the effects of these on suspension then? I'm not being cocky, I'm just ignorant and trying to learn something. I'm thinking suzuki don't put in enough oil, can this be the case. I've read about loads of people having no noise from the front after just changing the oil for one reason or another.
I'm no expert, but my thinking as to why it might work is that by (effectively) increasing the spring rate by adding the oil (as YC says) the spring is not compressing so much as it hits the bump and hence not "bottoming out". If the bottoming out was what was making the noise, it'd explain why just adding the oil stopped it.
yorkie_chris
11-12-08, 11:40 AM
That air gap at top of forks acts like a spring because you're compressing a gas. I don't know what the knock is but it could well be bottoming out noise.
Dangerous Dave
11-12-08, 11:47 AM
I don't know what the knock is but it could well be bottoming out noise.
Thats is what I believe it is, the cheapest option for stopping it is both springs and oil to match your weight.
yorkie_chris
11-12-08, 11:48 AM
And actually makes the bike go round corners properly... bargain.
svdemon
11-12-08, 08:11 PM
You make the damping more progressive by adding oil, the clunking was never bottoming out on mine as it happened at low speeds and the fork wasn't moving much.
No wonder they clunk, Look at how Suzuki saves money...
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/zunkus/Motorcycles/pasisvs02forkparts-1.jpg
northwind
13-12-08, 10:17 PM
What?
The SV stock spring is much shorter and to fill up the space they put that long pipe in. A longer spring may have most probably cost them that much more. My brother had that progressive spring installed to his forks and the clunk disappeared. Common sense tells me that a longer spring will give better springing and absorption qualities.
northwind
13-12-08, 10:26 PM
Nah, not really. The reason the one in the other pic is so enormous is that it's a progressive, they need longer springs for the same effect. If you get an aftermarket linear spring, it'll be about the same length as stock.
OK N, I understand that they have to be longer due to the compressed part but you may also notice that there is more of the 'normal' distanced spring to it as well. It does seem a better idea to have more spring material in there than a piece of pipe.
I must eat my words though, looking at more spring kits out there, progressive are always longer than normal linear springs, suzuki's still seem that bit shorter though.
Has anybody here done the CBR F3 fork internal upgrade to their SV?
I've been searching all over the net about this mod but not much luck yet!
yorkie_chris
14-12-08, 02:22 PM
I've heard of it. Basically you transplant some cartridges into there. I think you can use VTR1000 ones too, but I'm not at all sure about that.
svdemon
14-12-08, 06:54 PM
The noise isn't bottoming out as it used to happen to mine on slight bumps, the guy i spoke to at PDQ told me about adding oil making the damping more progressive. Suppose they don't know much about suspension though eh!
yorkie_chris
14-12-08, 07:00 PM
My theory is the internal oil seal on the piston has a bit of play in its groove, the knock is the seal flopping up and down.
So any luck with a link to how to fit CBR F3 internals to the stock lower fork? It seems that there was a category of mini twin racing in the US were the regulations forbid you to change the front to upside down forks so most racers did this mod. It's a shame that none did a post to explain the mod. Maybe they wanted to have the edge on the competition. STill a shame though as it seems a worthy option on improving the front while at the same time giving you the option to fit the clip-ons above the top tripple since it is a longer tube than the SV one. Could be a blessing for those wanting better ergonomics.
northwind
14-12-08, 07:55 PM
Ask SV Racing Parts (Blair), I think he knows about this one. Mainly as you say for people who aren't allowed to change the fork lowers.
Ok Northy, thanks for the tip.
By the way nice lyrics by Kaiser Chiefs, Angry Mob if I'm not mistaken.
Something on the same lines from a different group:
Quick to judge
Quick to anger
Slow to understand
Ignorance and prejudice
And fear walk hand in hand...
northwind
14-12-08, 08:16 PM
It seemed appropriate after one too many threads in IB :mrgreen:
Ask SV Racing Parts (Blair), I think he knows about this one. Mainly as you say for people who aren't allowed to change the fork lowers.
like he knows :roll::)
on curvy it is easiest to use inner tubes along with cartridge.it is not legal for supersport around here.you must have outer and inner stock.
on pointy you need to shorten cartridge before putting in,along with inner mods.
northwind
15-12-08, 06:29 PM
Well, he might have pinched the details off someone else :mrgreen:
yorkie_chris
15-12-08, 06:30 PM
As if anybody would have the cheek to... oh... wait... :-P
Robw#70
15-12-08, 10:20 PM
The noise isn't bottoming out as it used to happen to mine on slight bumps, the guy i spoke to at PDQ told me about adding oil making the damping more progressive. Suppose they don't know much about suspension though eh!
Who did you speak to?
With soft springs the forks move faster and as the damper rod relies on orifice style damping the holes will only flow a certain amount of oil, when the spring is soft this maximum is reached quicker, essentially hydraulicing on bigger bumps, with thicker oil the speed is reduced making the knock happen a bit later, with stiffer springs it is reduced again.
With Emulators fitted the orifice damping is removed (extra or larger holes) and the low and high speed compression is controlled by the emulator, giving a very similar damping curve to a cartridge/shim stack style valve.
Fitting cartridges from other bikes is great in idea, but in practice there are always comprimises when it comes to getting them inside a stock fork leg, generally requiring valve work to obtain the best from them, cartridges such as the AK20's are specifically designed to fit and valved to suit, hence they work very well.
Emulators or Matris internals are IMHO the best option when setup correctly, I have re-done a few cartridge conversions done by 'reputable' companies and none have performed any better.
...Emulators or Matris internals are IMHO the best option when setup correctly, I have re-done a few cartridge conversions done by 'reputable' companies and none have performed any better.
Right I'm taking your word for it, just ordered a Matris SE kit. It's gonna cost a fair amount but hey it's Christmas. ...now to convince the wife I need a rear shock. Bitubo XZE01 looks nice. Time to look at some rear shocks threads.
http://www.carpimoto.it/Images/Products/zoom/m%5Cmt_F05SE_Z.jpg
http://www.carpimoto.it/content/prod/l_IT/s_1_Home/br_5_Suzuki/bi_66_SV_650__02/fi_17_Matris/sp_1/pr_30019_Cartuccia_Forcella_Matris_per_Suzuki_SV_6 50_S_99_02.htm
http://www.carpimoto.it/Images/Products/Detail/b%5Cbi_XZE-01_D.jpg
Ceri JC
16-12-08, 10:33 AM
Zunkus, that internals kit is the exact same one I ordered. I know it's pricey, but you won't be disappointed, trust me. :)
As to the rear shock, what sort of mileage do you do and how long do you envisage keeping the bike? Reason I ask is if it's high, when looking into rear shocks, you should factor in the cost of shock rebuilds as part of the "true cost". After 2 years a £250 shock that costs £120 to have serviced every year is a false economy compared to a £350 shock that cost £60 to be serviced.
Thanks for the encouragement Ceri JC. It helps, I've been through the pros and cons of buying Gixxer parts or rebuilding my own for years now, yes truly! I've finally took the plunge.
No I don't do that many miles on the SV. It's my Sunday bike really with the occasional tour to Sicily. I'm not sure as to the milage I've got but it's not much I'm sure. I'm no racer either so don't need something with endless rebound this and damping that clicks. A shock that makes the bike feel better really. Keeping the bike's ergonomics is very important to me so would like the same ride height and I'd like not to touch the undertray with dremel bits if possible.
Robw#70
16-12-08, 11:11 PM
Im not a fan of Bitubo, all the ones ive played with (not on an sv) have been over damped and/or the wrong spring fitted.
Nitron and Hyperpro both do very good cheaper shocks £300 ish, Nitrons are built to order so length can be specified if not adjustable and you can tell them what you want and dont want if required.
As to the rear shock, what sort of mileage do you do and how long do you envisage keeping the bike? Reason I ask is if it's high, when looking into rear shocks, you should factor in the cost of shock rebuilds as part of the "true cost". After 2 years a £250 shock that costs £120 to have serviced every year is a false economy compared to a £350 shock that cost £60 to be serviced.
I'd be pretty p1ssed off if my 350 quid shock needed any servicing after a mere year (5000 miles average use) of road useage.
There's no need to have it done that frequently, no matter what the makers say.
injury_ian
17-12-08, 02:03 AM
Can any one tell me what the difference is between the KE and SE internals are, they both seem to have 'flow regulators' and are £200 different?
Fitting cartridges from other bikes is great in idea, but in practice there are always comprimises when it comes to getting them inside a stock fork leg, generally requiring valve work to obtain the best from them,
That's a shame, I have a complete spare set of 1998 CBR600 F3 internals sitting on the garage shelf.
Ceri JC
17-12-08, 10:01 AM
I'd be pretty p1ssed off if my 350 quid shock needed any servicing after a mere year (5000 miles average use) of road useage.
There's no need to have it done that frequently, no matter what the makers say.
Mine has just gone away for its first service (1 year/20,000 miles of use). It was still performing waaaaay better than a new stock shock, but wasn't quite as good as it had been when it was newer. Having it serviced after the first year extended the unlimited mileage warranty on it by another year too, which was a factor in my decision to send it off. I'd of paid £30 for another year's warranty anyway, given my mileage is only likely to go up this year, so £30 to have the performance back to new seemed a good deal.
I wrongly thought Zunkus did fairly high miles (must of been thinking of someone else), but I agree that now seeing he's mainly a Sunday rider, the servicing will be much less of a factor.
Can any one tell me what the difference is between the KE and SE internals are, they both seem to have 'flow regulators' and are £200 different?
The KE doesn't have a cartridge the SE has. This item provides better quality suspension in that it is more adaptive to different types of road surface variations, sharp or smooth bumps basically. Thus the difference in price. I was advised to go for SE.
I wrongly thought Zunkus did fairly high miles (must of been thinking of someone else), but I agree that now seeing he's mainly a Sunday rider, the servicing will be much less of a factor.
I do (relatively) high miles, not on the SV though I keep that for Sunday rides. My other bike though is the workhorse and is used everyday rain or shine.
Mine has just gone away for its first service (1 year/20,000 miles of use). It was still performing waaaaay better than a new stock shock, but wasn't quite as good as it had been when it was newer.
Now that I find perfectly acceptable - 20K miles is more like it. The average rider wouldn't need his doing as regularly as yourself
I wrongly thought Zunkus did fairly high miles (must of been thinking of someone else), but I agree that now seeing he's mainly a Sunday rider, the servicing will be much less of a factor.
Haha. There's only so much of Maltese roads any bike can take before they are battered to bits, and 20K miles a year round there would mean 3 new bikes a year if you owned hardcore trail bikes :-D
yorkie_chris
17-12-08, 02:27 PM
Im not a fan of Bitubo, all the ones ive played with (not on an sv) have been over damped and/or the wrong spring fitted.
Nitron and Hyperpro both do very good cheaper shocks £300 ish, Nitrons are built to order so length can be specified if not adjustable and you can tell them what you want and dont want if required.
Did you end up building those GSXR shocks?
Ceri JC
17-12-08, 02:36 PM
I do (relatively) high miles, not on the SV though I keep that for Sunday rides. My other bike though is the workhorse and is used everyday rain or shine.
Ah, that makes sense. Good to know my memory was only slightly faulty! :)
Robw#70
18-12-08, 06:37 AM
Did you end up building those GSXR shocks?
After the overwhelming response I got on here:rolleyes:.................Erm NO :smt019
Robw#70
18-12-08, 06:41 AM
The KE doesn't have a cartridge the ME has. This item provides better quality suspension in that it is more adaptive to different types of road surface variations, sharp or smooth bumps basically. Thus the difference in price. I was advised to go for ME.
The KE is basically a spring kit with flash tops and the SE comes with a valve instead of spring adapters hence the difference in price
Haha. There's only so much of Maltese roads any bike can take before they are battered to bits, and 20K miles a year round there would mean 3 new bikes a year if you owned hardcore trail bikes :-D
:) You understand Malta too well my friend. Good thing its a small island then eh with shorter distances to destinations otherwise we'll be the main source of income for bike manufacturers (and aftermarket shocks)! :mrgreen:
Zunkus, that internals kit is the exact same one I ordered. I know it's pricey, but you won't be disappointed, trust me. :)
I just received my Matris parts today as I got a msg from my supplier, I'll be picking them up tomorrow. He was blabbing something about them being tricky to install, yeah Lozzo you're nodding your head, he said something about the instructions are not that good and that air pockets might ruin things and also that there are no instructions about setting up the cartridge emulator.
26/12/2008: I finally installed the Matris cartridge emulator kit today and what a difference it made to the bike. Feels like a different bike altogether. When taking corners the bike is much more responsive to your input and more stable around corners especially if there are undulations. I set rider sag to 15mm is that ok? Oh the PLONK has gone :)
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