140 mph Police "Follow"

[Baph]

Courtesy of the link provided by Red Herring...

He also reminded himself that speed alone is not sufficient to found a conviction for dangerous driving; the speed had to be considered in the context of all the circumstances.

That is what the judge (in that case) deemed necessary because of the relevant laws surrounding the case. On that basis, I would consider the video evidence in this thread to demonstrate dangerous driving on behalf of the police officer.

There are simply too many mistakes made by the officer (primarily the overtake on a "blind" left bend, when he finds a bike coming the other way).

Personally, I think that the officer in the video from this thread should be subject to the exact same process that PC Milton was. Let a judge decide, and then the officer can appeal if necessary/desired.

After all, PC Milton was apparently acting on advice from superiors in order to "determine the handling characteristics of the vehicle" - surely the controller of this incident can only offer advice based on the radio information they are presented (which was very little in this video).

[Red Herring]

Or are you suggesting that the rider in the video was not dangerous in law because he was a class 1 trained rider,so the normal rules dont apply?
If so I dont buy that.I do agree that highly trained class one drivers and riders have greater skills and abilities than the rest of us,but not to the extent that they often like to think they do.In this case(the video above)I think the "follow" was high risk,and went on far beyond what was acceptable,and I believe that this probably happened because of the attitudes that exist among the class one fraternity.There is a certain hubris and superiority complex here that I believe is the cause of many accidents in the police(and other emergency services).These people are by no means infallible,and I speak as someone who has seen the results of that fallibility.

I'm inclined to agree with just about all of that. The purpose of the link was to demonstrate to those saying that because the police officer was riding at the same speed as the accused then he to should be prosecuted for dangerous driving, and what the link effectively says is that a court would have to consider the officers training in such an event and therefore such a prosecution is likely to fail.

I do however believe that the follow was excessive, that the officer took risks that were not speed associated, and in short got it wrong on occasion. He should have aborted much earlier, or made attempts to get the motorcyclist stopped.

[BanannaMan]

will they do it if you're white as well?



:rolleyes:
Yes...it's 2008 here in Virginia.

I can't speak for all of the US but where I live you'll find most black/white racism to still exist mostly among only the poorest of people, both black and white.
We have members of all races active in law enforcement, had a black governer here, and now have a black man running for president.

In fact if it comes down to a shooting....you're probably more likely to be shot if you are white because no one is going to be crying racism afterwards.
For the most part, racial violence of any type ended here in the late 60's and early 70's.
Police here target crimnals of any/all races.






I do however believe that the follow was excessive, that the officer took risks that were not speed associated, and in short got it wrong on occasion. He should have aborted much earlier, or made attempts to get the motorcyclist stopped.


http://cenvachristiansportbike.homestead.com/_1.gif

[flymo]

I think this copper was out of order. Imagine losing a relative in a collision with the police rider? Then being told he had been following with no attempt to stop the other rider for such a long time just to gather an evidence video.

Totally no need for it at all beyond the first few minutes.

The rider in front deserves all he gets by the way.

[muffles]

I'm inclined to agree with just about all of that. The purpose of the link was to demonstrate to those saying that because the police officer was riding at the same speed as the accused then he to should be prosecuted for dangerous driving, and what the link effectively says is that a court would have to consider the officers training in such an event and therefore such a prosecution is likely to fail.

I do however believe that the follow was excessive, that the officer took risks that were not speed associated, and in short got it wrong on occasion. He should have aborted much earlier, or made attempts to get the motorcyclist stopped.

Are you saying that you believe the police rider's actions were excessive, but not excessive enough to warrant a case for dangerous driving, when the circumstance of his police training is taken into account?

I actually think his actions were enough in excess - I think what a lot of people here are saying (me included) is that the police rider's actions were dangerous even if he had been trained (either he went far beyond recommended limits, or took approaches that weren't part of the training he had received). If that were the case, that would be highlighted in any dangerous driving case against the police rider and the prosecution should succeed.

[Red Herring]

Actually when pushed I'd be more inclined to say I didn't see enough from either rider to go straight for a dangerous driving charge. The subject rider (actually both riders) were way over an appropriate speed through the built up areas, and I certainly think he needed banning several times over for that, but the rest of the ride was just untidy rather than dangerous. There were a couple of occasions when the police rider positioned himself better than the subject with regard to some of the nearside dangers, but there was certainly also a couple of times when I thought the subject timed his overtake better than the police rider, in fact I'm not convinced I saw a tight one from the subject (however the camera perspective is notoriously deceptive). What I do know is the police rider comented that the subject had seen him in his mirrors and if anything this seemed to make him ride faster, clear signs to the officer that he should have aborted, especially as he wasn't trying to get the rider stopped. I also think that if the subject hadn't been there, and the police rider had in fact been on a marked bike attending an emergency, then his speeds generally would have been very similar in most of the places. I don't think the speeds themselves were dangerous in their own right, provided the rider had recognised and considered the potential for the dangers associated with travelling at those speeds, and that is where the police rider is allowed to rely on his training and expertise.

[simesb]

The purpose of the link was to demonstrate to those saying that because the police officer was riding at the same speed as the accused then he to should be prosecuted for dangerous driving, and what the link effectively says is that a court would have to consider the officers training in such an event and therefore such a prosecution is likely to fail.

I think what many people have been saying is that the police officer was taking unnecessary risks for no apparent reason. I have no problem with the police taking calculated risks to apprehend dangerous drivers, and their training is designed to try and mitigate those risks, but the purpose of such a long pursuit without attempting a stop are not evident.

[muffles]

Actually when pushed I'd be more inclined to say I didn't see enough from either rider to go straight for a dangerous driving charge. The subject rider (actually both riders) were way over an appropriate speed through the built up areas, and I certainly think he needed banning several times over for that, but the rest of the ride was just untidy rather than dangerous. There were a couple of occasions when the police rider positioned himself better than the subject with regard to some of the nearside dangers, but there was certainly also a couple of times when I thought the subject timed his overtake better than the police rider, in fact I'm not convinced I saw a tight one from the subject (however the camera perspective is notoriously deceptive). What I do know is the police rider comented that the subject had seen him in his mirrors and if anything this seemed to make him ride faster, clear signs to the officer that he should have aborted, especially as he wasn't trying to get the rider stopped. I also think that if the subject hadn't been there, and the police rider had in fact been on a marked bike attending an emergency, then his speeds generally would have been very similar in most of the places. I don't think the speeds themselves were dangerous in their own right, provided the rider had recognised and considered the potential for the dangers associated with travelling at those speeds, and that is where the police rider is allowed to rely on his training and expertise.

Fair enough - I'm in two minds myself, I really need to rewatch it. Earlier I mentioned I didn't see anything too OTT, but above of course I said I think it's enough for a DD charge on both.

What I suspected was that I missed some details - the speed itself I had no problem with, but I think I would need to review the interaction/effect with/on other road users, and also the behaviour around junctions, etc, which I think is the most vulnerable/dangerous point.

[ethariel]

I also think that if the subject hadn't been there, and the police rider had in fact been on a marked bike attending an emergency, then his speeds generally would have been very similar in most of the places.

If this had been the video of a police bike with BIG BLUE flashing lights and a BIG LOUD SIREN then this topic would have been mostly dead.

I'm sure this is not a one off event, just probably the first one to become public (afterall in a similar situation, wouldn't it be great to know you can go hooning off after someone and ride any way you want with no fear of porsecution?) slagging match.

A couple of hundred quid for some blue strobes and a siren and most of this ill feeling and barracking could have been avoided.

Sure the person being 'followed' may have gone even more hell for leather to get away, but then they knew exactly who he was, where he lived and how often he did the same thing so could easily have aborted while a local car sat at his house to say hi with cuffs.

IMHO, this whole incident is simply someone getting his jollies on an unmarked bike coz it's fun.

EDIT - Because they are trained as a Class 1 then this kind of behaviour could be considered 'Safe'? If so what's your position on WRC drivers doing handbrake runs at 100+ through housing estates and 150+ on motorways and claiming 'They are world class drivers so know what they are doing'?

[flymo]

If this had been the video of a police bike with BIG BLUE flashing lights and a BIG LOUD SIREN then this topic would have been mostly dead.


+1

[G]

+1

I cant believe its even still going on lol missed a few pages of banter there by not paying attention.

[Stu]

:rolleyes:
Yes...it's 2008 here in Virginia.


But not in London, UK.
I think it's a bit unfair of the Lone Wolf to accuse you of racism on Good ole boy town US of A when the Black Police Association recommending Black people do not join the Metropolitan force because racism is worse than in the 60s.

derail over.

[the_lone_wolf]

I think it's a bit unfair of the Lone Wolf to accuse you of racism on Good ole boy town US of A when the Black Police Association recommending Black people do not join the Metropolitan force because racism is worse than in the 60s.

i couldn't find a "tongue in cheek" smiley...

plus i never miss a chance to poke our special cousin who lives on the other side of the lake...;)

[flymo]

...plus i never miss a chance to poke our special cousin who lives on the other side of the lake...;)

Ooo errr mrs

[yorkie_chris]

Jesus... he's calling the septics rednecks... and he's poking his cousin...

[Red Herring]

If this had been the video of a police bike with BIG BLUE flashing lights and a BIG LOUD SIREN then this topic would have been mostly dead.


And that's the ironic bit. Police riders most certainly do not rely on their blue lights and trust the public to see them, and they most certainly do not rely on their sirens and expect anyone to hear them. In fact I would go so far as to suggest that neither would have helped during this follow with the exception of the Vectra on the dual carriageway. If anything blue lights tend to cause drivers ahead to panic and brake when you least need it, and sirens are even worse. Both devices are very useful when you need to get drivers out of your way (rare on a bike) and the siren can be useful in a built up area to keep pedestrians on the pavement, but a police rider still has to ride as if they haven't been seen/heard.

[Demonz]

I suspect like most people, the rider would have pulled over if he new it was an unmarked bike follwing him?

[jimmy__riddle]

In fact I would go so far as to suggest that neither would have helped during this follow

the guy might have stopped ;)

[Red Herring]

I suspect you are right. My point was that the use of blue lights and a siren would not have made the speeds any safer for the police rider, or aided his progress.

[BanannaMan]

But not in London, UK.
I think it's a bit unfair of the Lone Wolf to accuse you of racism on Good ole boy town US of A when the Black Police Association recommending Black people do not join the Metropolitan force because racism is worse than in the 60s.




:shock:
Wow..I am shocked to hear to that racism is on the rise there.
Once the worse place in the world, racism here is, for the most part, dead or dying.
I'm sure many people may think it's still that way here in the south (USA) but today laws are extra tuff on crimes that target victims by race or religion. (and enforced to the letter)





plus i never miss a chance to poke our special cousin who lives on the other side of the lake...



Ahhh......I feel all warm and fuzzy now. ;)

Just don't be upset if I poke back. :smt064



"Lone Wolf" kinda has that Harley rider sound to it anyway. :p
;)

[Red Herring]

I'm not so sure it's actually on the rise over her either Banannaman, it's just that there have been a couple of high profile slanging matches and the tendency when you are losing is to throw whatever mud happens to come to hand, and the racism card has been pulled a few times. The danger now is that it has been used so many times that it actually does have the potential to increase racism. People are so frightened of being called racist that they actively avoid contact with minority groups....

Anyone know the ethnic background of the rider in this video? Would it have made any difference if he had been a white Australian called Troy?

[the_lone_wolf]

...I'm sure many people may think it's still that way here in the south (USA) but today laws are extra tuff on crimes that target victims by race or religion. (and enforced to the letter)

you know things a "gon' git dunn" when you have Sheriff Buford T. Justice on the case:

http://images.dawgsports.com/images/admin/blackandwhite_Buford_T_Justice_in_car.bmp

"What we're dealing with here is a complete lack of respect for the law. "

;)

[Red Herring]

Yeah, no seatbelts.....and I can't see his tax disc.

[punyXpress]

but a police rider still has to ride as if they haven't been seen/heard

Just the same as us, then...

[simesb]

Does anybody really think that the bike didn't have lights and a sirens? They went to all the trouble of video equiping it....... Every unmarked police bike I've seen has low-profile blues above the mirrors or similar.

[the_lone_wolf]

Does anybody really think that the bike didn't have lights and a sirens? They went to all the trouble of video equiping it....... Every unmarked police bike I've seen has low-profile blues above the mirrors or similar.

i didn't want to say anything but when he flashes the vectra i saw alternately flashing headlamps in the reflection, unmarked car style...

[Luckypants]

Does anybody really think that the bike didn't have lights and a sirens? They went to all the trouble of video equiping it....... Every unmarked police bike I've seen has low-profile blues above the mirrors or similar.
Which surely makes his riding even more dodgy, if he had blue lamps and did not use them? Blues would have at least alerted oncoming traffic that he was an emergency vehicle, but most likely would have ended the 'follow' much earlier and IMO more safely.

[jimmy__riddle]

Does anybody really think that the bike didn't have lights and a sirens? They went to all the trouble of video equiping it....... Every unmarked police bike I've seen has low-profile blues above the mirrors or similar.

i think its more of a case of whether they were used from/near the start of the 'follow' as oppsed to whether he had them.

[Luckypants]

i didn't want to say anything but when he flashes the vectra i saw alternately flashing headlamps in the reflection, unmarked car style...

sorry, but it looks like a normal head lamp flash to me, just like any old person flashing their headlamps to make Vectra man move over.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I doubt he was using flashing lights, otherwise why would the other rider pull into a dealership like he was going about his own business...

[Bluepete]

I read the rider's response to this video today in the MCN. A brief version of the story is here. (http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/mcn/2008/November/3-9/nov0508-140mph-biker-speaks-of-chase/)

Now, I made it clear, I hope, that I was concerned about the tactics used in the evidence gathering, but the way this lad portrays himself is a bit, well, stupid really.

He says he only went so fast because he feared he would be rear-ended by the following bike! Pull the other one chum, it's not covered in bullsh1t! I feel that he is just riding the wave of public concern over the Cops tactics.

However, he makes a good point in the article in the paper regarding parity in sentencing. A man also in his community service group was convicted of possession of £1500 worth of heroin and received a caution and 100hrs service, versus his two year suspended sentence and 240 hrs service.

Plus, he looks like that annoying jockey, Frankie Dettori!

[yorkie_chris]

However, he makes a good point in the article in the paper regarding parity in sentencing. A man also in his community service group was convicted of possession of £1500 worth of heroin and received a caution and 100hrs service, versus his two year suspended sentence and 240 hrs service.

Suprise suprise.

[the_lone_wolf]

However, he makes a good point in the article in the paper regarding parity in sentencing. A man also in his community service group was convicted of possession of £1500 worth of heroin and received a caution and 100hrs service, versus his two year suspended sentence and 240 hrs service.

Heroin's bad...




But speed kills...


...




......




I'll just get my coat:rolleyes:

[yorkie_chris]

Brunstrom?

[Luckypants]

Brunstrom?

If he had his way, heroin would be legal. :rolleyes:

The point about parity in sentencing is a good one. How do they expect us to respect the laws of the land when something as bad as a drugs offence is treated more lightly than a traffic offence where no one was hurt? (As far as we know).

[yorkie_chris]

The point about parity in sentencing is a good one. How do they expect us to respect the laws of the land when something as bad as a drugs offence is treated more lightly than a traffic offence where no one was hurt? (As far as we know).

He got to the dealership without bothering anyone...

I'm not sure about respect for the law... suffice to say I'm not suprised nobody has any. Thank the ruling junta for that...

[the_lone_wolf]

Brunstrom?

**makes "whooshing over head" gesture**

;)

[Stu]

Well explain then :???:

[the_lone_wolf]

Well explain then :???:

you see the joke is funny because the general road safety message is tha "speed kills"

now what i've done, and this is the clever bit, is mixed that in with the fact that speed is also another name for LSD, which is an illegal drug

the punchline is where i say "speed kills" after saying heroin is bad, leaving the reader wondering whether i'm talking about the drug, or travelling too fast on the roads

hilarious!!!

it's never as funny when you explain it though:p

[plowsie]

Yeah delete that post, its not as funny now :(

[the_lone_wolf]

Yeah delete that post, its not as funny now :(

i didn't think it was that bad...

is wednesday the new friday or something?:mrgreen:

[Bluepete]

I fricken laughed Wolfie! Didn't even need it explaining!



Must be over qualified....

[Bluepete]

I'm not sure about respect for the law... suffice to say I'm not suprised nobody has any. Thank the ruling junta for that...


Think how we at the blunt end feel mate.


It's our fault you know, no-one in the outside world has heard of the CPS and charging and sentencing guidlines, it's always our fault....

[Stu]

and this is the clever bit,
:p
Yeah I got all that :p honest 8-[

It's the why did YC mention Brunstrom :confused:

[yorkie_chris]

Pete I have a lot of respect for most coppers, the ones at the bottom of the chain anyway. The ones at the top generally don't come across any better than the rest of government. Look at all the crap with this years bulldog rally...

Public service or not, I wouldn't work for such rseholes.

[Bluepete]

Pete I have a lot of respect for most coppers, the ones at the bottom of the chain anyway. The ones at the top generally don't come across any better than the rest of government. Look at all the crap with this years bulldog rally...

Public service or not, I wouldn't work for such rseholes.


Ta very much.

I do 'cos I get to drive very fast cars, very fast! Hooray!!

[yorkie_chris]

Mentioned Brunstrom because it has been seen in the media that he wanted to legalise heroin, but goes all frothy at the mouth at the thought of someone having fun on a bike.

[dizzyblonde]

Look at all the crap with this years bulldog rally...

Public service or not, I wouldn't work for such rseholes.

Ah, now I can see the reasoning behind that...come on Chris you've heard many a tale of Angels and Slaves from our direction. I think the coppers did right...can't be having the angels an all the rest of em taking the law into their own hands. You've probably never been witness to what that lot can get up to in a private rally field, other none patch folk there or not, they ain't partial to who's around... thats not to say they are all bad mannered, gun toting villians BTW


right o back on topic,...as you were