View Full Version : 140 mph Police "Follow"
Bluepete
30-09-08, 03:52 PM
I just watched this video and wondered what the collective .org make of it.
VIDEO (http://www.visordown.com/motorcyclenews/view/video_police_footage_of_140mph_biker/5630.html)
I do find myself wondering how the duty officer in charge allowed it to go on for so long. I wasn't happy with it and thought the Cop put himself and others in danger as much as the lad in front.
Discuss.
the_lone_wolf
30-09-08, 04:00 PM
so did the copper have his blues and twos on then or not?:confused:
Bluepete
30-09-08, 04:05 PM
so did the copper have his blues and twos on then or not?:confused:
I couldn't make any out. Certainly couldn'y hear any noise and there were no reflections of blue on any road signs or cars as he passed.
the_lone_wolf
30-09-08, 04:10 PM
I couldn't make any out. Certainly couldn'y hear any noise and there were no reflections of blue on any road signs or cars as he passed.
that's what i was thinking:shock:
so when you boil it down what the copper is doing is no different from any other competent rider chasing down the guy in front at 100mph+ on a busy wet public road:rolleyes:
gettin2dizzy
30-09-08, 04:10 PM
I think I've expressed my views on police bikers before. They've always ridden like muppets around me, flashed me out of the way and doing 90+ with no blues+twos.
One rule..
plowsie
30-09-08, 04:11 PM
The Copper was quite dangerous in places, ie. almost hitting the other biker coming the other way. And in fairness, although it was all wrong the kids lines were pretty good and smooth and it was wet :shock:
timwilky
30-09-08, 04:15 PM
Pompous copper comments on the guys riding at the start and rides no better himself.
This should have been stopped early. either put his blues on and pull him. Or having got his plate back off and pay him a visit.
Instead he is goading and pushing the rider. God help him if there had been an off.
DanAbnormal
30-09-08, 04:18 PM
I saw a police rider a week or so back come off the M25 doing roughly 90ish, went straight into lane 3 of the M3 and made another vehicle almost lose control as it had to brake so hard. Some police riders should be banned. I would question any 'pursuit' without sirens and lights. Just as dangerous as the lad in front, only difference is one guy has a badge.
Luckypants
30-09-08, 04:20 PM
Without blue lights / sirens that police rider is just another 'crazy biker' on the road. It could be argued that he pressured the pursued rider into some of that stuff, since had he turned on lights / sirens then the 'follow' may have come to an end earlier, since the pursued would have had the opportunity to stop for a nicking at that point?
Both riders made dodgy overtakes, but as we are told Police pursuit drivers are better than good, I think his riding was not up to the standard I'd expect. Lane splitting over a zebra crossing and overtaking in the face of the oncoming bike? Hardly safe IMO. The officer was also calling the speeds way higher than the video, but maybe that is due to his bike speedo not being calibrated.
I agree with BP that the officer in the control room should have called a halt much earlier with the high speeds in 30's and 40's
:shock:
All good fun until somebody clips a Metro.
xXBADGERXx
30-09-08, 04:53 PM
Absolutely shocking that it went on for so long , only evidence of any sort of lights was when the Police Rider came up behind the Silver car and turned on , what appeared to be , Amber lights . That pursuit should have been halted with some flashing lights and a "Pull over sonny" . I`m impressed with the pursuit skills of the Policeman myself to be honest , in very dangerous areas , but , I may hasten to add , it shouldn`t have come to that .
DanAbnormal
30-09-08, 04:54 PM
I like the bit where the police officer says:
"Yes sir his bend assement is terrible and he's not very competent in the wet" and then chuckles.
Yet he gets some distance away from the police rider throught he twisty NSL bits...........:shock:
Hang on, I just had a thought. Are the police now allowed to try and stop motorcycle pursuits or just observe? I'm sure I heard somehere that they are not allowed to try and halt the rider if they seem to be riding dangerously.
BP, any ideas?
muffles
30-09-08, 05:05 PM
FYI here's the video again, and some more information: http://www.sussex.police.uk/news_feed/index.asp?id=24911
maultin
30-09-08, 05:10 PM
Everyone has said exactly what I am thinking - if there are no lights or sirens, then the police rider is just as negligent as the loon in front of him. He commented on every illegal move the guy took, whilst making exactly the same moves himself & giving other road users no idea who he was or what he was doing.
One final note - police cop or not & 140mph, if someone on the bypass had had a blow out & swirved into his path he would have been removed from the road with a sweeoing brush & a hose pipe.
Would be interesting to know whether the police rider was repremanded? - but we all really know the answer to that question
ethariel
30-09-08, 05:15 PM
IMHO the police rider was much more at fault than the other bike, that should have been stopped way back at the start, unmarked bike with no blue lamps/siren, he was right up the ar$e of another car on the DC flashing at him to get out of the way.
Should be banned from the roads forever!
Normally i'm happy to give ANY of the emergency services 100% for waht they do on the roads or how they drive as most are damned good, however when acting like a prat WITHOUT lamps/sirens going they should suffer the concequences rather than get jis jollies riding like a **** (sounds kinda like munt) and i sooooo rarely even think that word!
Seems to have been an unmarked bike, and the commentary speeds were a good 10-15mph out on the video. Some of the commentary was a bit ropey - it was the police rider who nearly had the head on with the other biker!
normal stopping procedures were not considered appropriate. Instead, the rider was safely tracked using unmarked cars and an unmarked motorcycle
Hmmm.
Shellywoozle
30-09-08, 05:28 PM
Mmmm what happened to pursuit policy, like relaying weather conditions, traffic, pedestrianised zones etc. my control room would have stopped that immediately and would not have let me continue. In 4.30 mins I heard the controller twice that's shocking !
Mmmmm I have to agree with BP and many others.
sv-robo
30-09-08, 05:31 PM
Absolutely shocking that it went on for so long , .
+1
the rogue biker should have been & gone a long time ago.;):)
xXBADGERXx
30-09-08, 05:34 PM
+1
the rogue biker should have been & gone a long time ago.;):)
Oh god that made me laugh , there`s always one
"The method of riding was considered so extreme by investigating officers from the Sussex Road Policing Unit that normal stopping procedures were not considered appropriate. Instead, the rider was safely tracked using unmarked cars and an unmarked motorcycle in order to gather evidence to support a prosecution."
Think the sussex road policing unit need their water supply checking - seems to be a testosterone contamination.
xXBADGERXx
30-09-08, 05:38 PM
Think the sussex road policing unit need their water supply checking - seems to be a testosterone contamination.
Or Crystal Meth :D
sv-robo
30-09-08, 05:41 PM
Oh god that made me laugh , there`s always one
Why thank you sir:takeabow:.....one aims to please:lol:
was that copper on a pointy?His speedo was always 10 mph over the vid.
:shock:
All good fun until somebody clips a Metro.
Yeah, when you've clipped a Parisian underground train you know you're in trouble.
So where was the police helo in all this, no reason to follow with another bike at all :rolleyes:
Policemen eh?
http://kriswithak.co.uk/ladybird.htm (http://kriswithak.co.uk/ladybird.htm)
Bluepete
30-09-08, 06:12 PM
I love that book Lozzo, have a copy in my tray at work!
to be realistic ,why was there a need to follow for so long.There was enough evidence after a few minutes to nick him,with out putting all those people at risk.
I was surprised that the vid got out until I clicked on the second link ,to see that it was an official police link.
Seggens(soz mate) got berated around the world for his vid and it was no where near as dangerous as that cops riding.
Igot the impression that "I,m gonna have you no matter what sonny"was going round inside his helmet
Supposedly they had lots of complaints from the public about the rider as that was 'his commute' and rode like that every day. So they put an unmarked bike on his route to follow him
In my opinion the police rider was much more careless than the rider infront, he had several moments in that video where it appeared the rider being persued had none.
Just looked like a fun hoon to me :smt015
Just looked like a fun hoon to me :smt015
I sold my Gixer Thou because I was riding like that or faster every time I took the damn thing out. It was considered rude to put it back in the garage without first hitting 150mph, no matter what the weather. I did always stick to 30s and 40s though, but NSL are treated as GLFs
I sold my Gixer Thou because I was riding like that or faster every time I took the damn thing out. It was considered rude to put it back in the garage without first hitting 150mph, no matter what the weather. I did always stick to 30s and 40s though, but NSL are treated as GLFs
+1
30's and 40's or any signposted speed limit in a red circles I stick to, or thereabouts.....National zones are fair game, I ride as fast as I feel is safe to do so, to the point I didnt think some of that riding (speed) was all that bad.
I'll be keeping an more keen eye out for normal looking bikes keeping up in future though.
Red Herring
30-09-08, 07:42 PM
Sorry, but I guess I'm in the minority again in not seeing to much wrong with the police riding. I agree he does get sucked into the overtake with the oncoming biker, and there are a couple of others he doesn't time it to well either, but generally his lines, timing and safety margins are so much better than the rider in front. The commentary was a bit lacking, giving little information/evidence (although with video such as this it is less important than it used to be), but what was definitely missing was any kind of discussion as to how it was going to be concluded, or any ongoing risk assessment ("are you still alright with it Dave" hardly qualifies). It seems to me that this was a pure evidence gathering exercise which tends to suggest that the police knew exactly who the rider was and there were no issues over the bike being nicked etc etc. That being the case i think they had more than enough after the first sortie through the village with speeds of 80 plus in a 30.
As for the comments about everything the rider did the police officer also did, just bear in mind that the police rider has a legal exemptions to certain things. How exactly do you expect them to be able to do their job...?
We all like to get a move on from time to time, but the way that rider treated the built up areas was unforgivable. Personally I think he is no loss to the rest of the motorcycling fraternity.
454697819
30-09-08, 07:47 PM
sorry but this really really annoys me....
Why can they not pull them at the FIRST OFFENCE....
not oooh lets follow them to see what else they do....winds me the feck up... idiots...
Red Herring
30-09-08, 07:55 PM
Idiots is a bit strong, but like i said, I do agree they didn't need to follow beyond the first village. Not sure why the police rider didn't play his hand, he had plenty of opportunity to either flash the rider up or even pull up alongside. Having said that they could argue that by following for longer they were demonstrating a prolonged course of action, after all how often have you heard the excuse "Oh my client just suffered a momentary loss of concentration your worships"?
454697819
30-09-08, 07:57 PM
Idiots is a bit strong, but like i said, I do agree they didn't need to follow beyond the first village. Not sure why the police rider didn't play his hand, he had plenty of opportunity to either flash the rider up or even pull up alongside. Having said that they could argue that by following for longer they were demonstrating a prolonged course of action, after all how often have you heard the excuse "Oh my client just suffered a momentary loss of concentration your worships"?
granted... like I said it winds me up... so strong words will be used..
Seggons
30-09-08, 07:58 PM
Seggens(soz mate) got berated around the world for his vid and it was no where near as dangerous as that cops riding.
Dam, must try harder. ;)
muffles
30-09-08, 08:08 PM
Sorry, but I guess I'm in the minority again in not seeing to much wrong with the police riding. I agree he does get sucked into the overtake with the oncoming biker, and there are a couple of others he doesn't time it to well either, but generally his lines, timing and safety margins are so much better than the rider in front. The commentary was a bit lacking, giving little information/evidence (although with video such as this it is less important than it used to be), but what was definitely missing was any kind of discussion as to how it was going to be concluded, or any ongoing risk assessment ("are you still alright with it Dave" hardly qualifies). It seems to me that this was a pure evidence gathering exercise which tends to suggest that the police knew exactly who the rider was and there were no issues over the bike being nicked etc etc. That being the case i think they had more than enough after the first sortie through the village with speeds of 80 plus in a 30.
As for the comments about everything the rider did the police officer also did, just bear in mind that the police rider has a legal exemptions to certain things. How exactly do you expect them to be able to do their job...?
We all like to get a move on from time to time, but the way that rider treated the built up areas was unforgivable. Personally I think he is no loss to the rest of the motorcycling fraternity.
I actually think this looks like a fast hoon - maybe a bit OTT, not leaving much margin for error if other road users do anything silly, but not as madman-like as comments I've seen (on other forums too).
By virtue of the police rider doing similar manoeuvres, I think he wasn't too bad either. However, knowing how police riders seem to ride (very safe, for obvious reasons), I am a little surprised he went for some of the moves - he clearly didn't want to let him get away.
On the subject of exemptions from the law, yes he does have exemptions, but that doesn't change the safety aspect of it at all, so for me that's a bit of a moot point. Respect the laws, not the person.
I don't think anyone was saying they shouldn't do it for any other reason than the safety aspect/similarities with the moves the rider he was following.
Dam, must try harder. ;)
notice the NW4 vid didnt show much riding:)
ThEGr33k
30-09-08, 08:39 PM
Dont work for me... Great.
Bar the white line over-takes and speeding in the 30/40/50s it looks like a typical ride out for your average sport biker.
It was me :(
Or not....
I'm sparticus
I'm sparticus
No, I am Sparticus :D
yorkie_chris
30-09-08, 11:03 PM
What the f### is the police website on about "extreme"? The copper had more near misses than the other fella, definately $hit up more car drivers.
The copper on about the guys cornering then getting left behind in a twisty bit...
"Forcing another vehicle into inside lane," he says as he flashes some dude in a vectra 4 or 5 times...
"Riding with left hand on the tank" .... so what? Not illegal. Not a detriment to control at cruise.
The guy was caught bang to rights, should have been a bit more careful when followed by another random bike. Sneaky c##ts... but still the copper was IMO well out of order.
I still think this is a wind up.
Such poor riding/commentary and lack of knowledge of the law just makes this look like 2 guys out for a hoon together.
Why would the cop mention overtaking on zig zags in the face of on coming traffic, when that is not illegal. Passing the lead vehicle closest to a crossing is, but the biker didn't do that. & it wasn't until the cop had oncoming traffic that he mentioned it.
Also, overtaking on solid whites in the example did not look illegal to me as most of the solid whites were not enforceable as they were not preceeded by 2 arrows (bending to the left)
Professor
01-10-08, 08:34 AM
I could try claiming that this was I but, unfortunately, nobody
would believe me. :(
Seriously, the policeman was wrong to engage in this pursuit. This
creates a danger to the public.
It wasnt a persuit as such......it was an evidence gathering excersise. They had no intention of pulling him over, just to follow to gather evidence.
Clearly they wanted as much evidence as possible to keep following.
Flamin_Squirrel
01-10-08, 09:00 AM
It wasnt a persuit as such......it was an evidence gathering excersise. They had no intention of pulling him over, just to follow to gather evidence.
Clearly they wanted as much evidence as possible to keep following.
As excuses go though, that's pretty poor. It's like observing a lunatic with a knife, and waiting to see if he murders someone. Evidence gathering, y'see.
I've not seen the vid yet, but by the sounds of it the biker is within 'nicked and banned' terratory fairly early on. I see no reason why it should have been allowed to continue beyond that.
Because if he rides like that everyday, there a good chance when they try to pull him he will try and run knowing the trouble he was already in, which will only create more danger and an even more chance of an accident.
If thats his commute to work and the police could only just keep up safely (and in some place very dangerously) then I'm sure his red mist hoon is even quicker and they would have lost him and been unable to identify him, as it is they followed him to a motorcycle dealership where he was arrested it say on another forum.
the_lone_wolf
01-10-08, 09:09 AM
I see no reason why it should have been allowed to continue beyond that.
copper couldn't get in front to stop him;)
DanAbnormal
01-10-08, 09:14 AM
I actually think this looks like a fast hoon -
90 in a 30.........remind me not to go out with you loonies! :p
If he did that commute everyday and knew what time and where he would be why not get the chopper out (ooer). Much safer I think than trying to keep up. Let's be honest the copper wasn't as good as the other rider and also couldn't wheelie - wimp!
90 in a 30.........remind me not to go out with you loonies! :p
There is actually a 30 near me that 130+ is safe on.
Its the road on top of the quarry I live in, the only traffic is traffic coming down to the houses in the quarry. Its 3/4 mile of completely straight road, with clear vision the whole length and into the field either side.
Not that I would condone doing 130+ in a 30.
Generally I stick to speed limits shown in round red circles. National speed limits are whatever I feel is safe and alot of that riding in national speed limits I didnt think was unacceptable.
If he did that commute everyday and knew what time and where he would be why not get the chopper out (ooer). Much safer I think than trying to keep up. Let's be honest the copper wasn't as good as the other rider and also couldn't wheelie - wimp!
A) Expense
B) Speed is hard to judge from a chopper, judge gets a better feel from on the ground.
C) They were probably wanting to bait him into going faster.
DanAbnormal
01-10-08, 09:27 AM
A) Expense
B) Speed is hard to judge from a chopper, judge gets a better feel from on the ground.
C) They were probably wanting to bait him into going faster.
Some good points I'd not thought about barring cost.
Still, I guess my only issue with the vid is that it goes on for so long, having sirens/lamps wouldn't have made the coppers riding much safer although at least the public would have known but then that's wasn't what the police wanted. They wanted the rider to think there was a bloke on a bike behind him that was up for a hoon. I've never done that, cough! :o
Flamin_Squirrel
01-10-08, 09:32 AM
Because if he rides like that everyday, there a good chance when they try to pull him he will try and run knowing the trouble he was already in, which will only create more danger and an even more chance of an accident.
If thats his commute to work and the police could only just keep up safely (and in some place very dangerously) then I'm sure his red mist hoon is even quicker and they would have lost him and been unable to identify him, as it is they followed him to a motorcycle dealership where he was arrested it say on another forum.
Nah I don't buy that. They had his plate didn't they? So if they thought he'd run they could just arrest him at home. If it turned out to be a dodgy plate, then they could have come back and got him another day.
DanAbnormal
01-10-08, 09:48 AM
Nah I don't buy that. They had his plate didn't they? So if they thought he'd run they could just arrest him at home. If it turned out to be a dodgy plate, then they could have come back and got him another day.
Which is what they did in the end anway, they got him at a bike dealers in London. Perhaps he was downgrading to a 125? :D
Because if he rides like that everyday, there a good chance when they try to pull him he will try and run knowing the trouble he was already in, which will only create more danger and an even more chance of an accident.
In that case they should have set up a road block further along the road inside one of the more congested areas where he has to slow down to filter through the traffic. They knew his usual route so it wouldn't have been difficult. They had enough evidence to ban him from about 2 miles into that follow, so why keep going for so long putting other road user's lives at risk.
I've been stopped by a 2 car across the road road-block, you've got no chance of running and at first you haven't got a clue they are after you in particular.
muffles
01-10-08, 09:53 AM
90 in a 30.........remind me not to go out with you loonies! :p
If he did that commute everyday and knew what time and where he would be why not get the chopper out (ooer). Much safer I think than trying to keep up. Let's be honest the copper wasn't as good as the other rider and also couldn't wheelie - wimp!
:smt043
I think he was a little OTT, but in all honesty when watching the video I was concentrating on the traffic/roads rather than the speed limits specifically (ride the road, not the limit). 90 down Oxford Street is madness, but I've seen 30 limits where it's certainly possible...
There is actually a 30 near me that 130+ is safe on.
Its the road on top of the quarry I live in, .
You live in a quarry?..Eeh, by 'eck, it's grim oop north.
yorkie_chris
01-10-08, 10:02 AM
You live in a quarry?..Eeh, by 'eck, it's grim oop north.
Eeeeh we used to dream of living in a quarry...
Quarry? you were lucky....
A quarry which is now a designated nature preservation area. Completely silent as well no traffic. The only thing identifying it as a quarry is the quicksand and the 100ft sandstone walls.
Just hope the drainage doesnt ever get blocked, then I'll be living at the bottom of a lake.
Professor
01-10-08, 10:35 AM
You live in a quarry?..Eeh, by 'eck, it's grim oop north.
I have gone further: I live on the Hatfield Aerodrome. According to
Google there's still a huge plane standing on the spot where my
house is.
And, yes, I also have a quarry in front of my house (OK, not directly -
about a mile away). Sometimes I see the huge dumper trucks coming out
laden with gravel.
It is grim down South as well.
So for the sake of a fine and a two year ban they put innocent members of the public at risk for longer then they should have. IF this was his common route then they could have quite easily set up two or three short follows and then backed off when it got hairy. I dont care how good the police say their bike coppers are, the law of physics is the same for them as it is anyone else. If I tried to claim that I am a qualified IAM tester adn therefore could ride safely at those speeds I would be laughed out of court.
I not saying that the guy didnt deserve what he got but I am suugesting that the evidence gathereing was very poorly planned adn executed. If they have got he resources to catch these "rogues" as they say on their web page well then bloody well use them properly.
I would suggest that there is a hidden sensationilist video agenda here to show how naughty all bikers are (and to get on Police Camera Action!!!)
gettin2dizzy
01-10-08, 12:28 PM
THIS dude is asking for trouble however!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7645153.stm
yorkie_chris
01-10-08, 12:31 PM
THIS dude is asking for trouble however!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7645153.stm
Fail.
Pretty good minger though.
B) Speed is hard to judge from a chopper, judge gets a better feel from on the ground.
Is it? Some forces, like North Wales, have the full VOSA system fitted to the police helicopter. That means that not only can they get your speed (accurately, and it's calibrated), but they can also see if you have MOT/Tax etc at the same time. Just by pointing the camera at you.
Biker Biggles
01-10-08, 03:49 PM
If it was an evidence gathering job then it should have been done legally,not at 130 mph putting other road users at risk.If it was a pursuit,then he should have had the blues and twos on,at least from the time he caught up and had video of serious offenses going on.Anything beyond that is gratuitous racing on the road and the police should be pulled for it.
amnesia
01-10-08, 07:27 PM
The rider is bang out of order, but the copper should be pulled in for his seriously reckless riding too.
How can they justify that tactic? Evidence gathering should never come before public safety.
The Police should set an example - that video is definately not the example they should be setting. If it was my local force, I would certainly be making a complaint.
Outrageous.
Why doesnt the police bike have any lights? Just because its unmarked doesnt mean that a couple of disreet blues at the front couldnt be fitted with a horn. The commentary and control room communication was nothing short of appalling. If my commentary had been that bad in my test I would have failed. Im surprised (very surprised) it wasnt pulled much earlier when mentioning the speed in the 30.
I just think that Sussex Police send out a bad message on their site regarding bikers and no doubt it will get the locals wound up. Another North Wales by the sounds of it.
Blue Flame
01-10-08, 10:55 PM
Atrocious riding at those speeds in the 40/30 sections. Deserves a ban IMHO.
Don't give a toss about the police bike. If it demonstrates to us all what idiots there are on the road and makes them think twice (cos that bike behind you just might not be your pal!!) then fair enough in my book.
yorkie_chris
01-10-08, 10:57 PM
Atrocious riding at those speeds in the 40/30 sections. Deserves a ban IMHO.
Don't give a toss about the police bike. If it demonstrates to us all what idiots there are on the road and makes them think twice (cos that bike behind you just might not be your pal!!) then fair enough in my book.
Aye, but the coppers not supposed to be one of them...
Oh yeah saw a piggywiggy R1 in streetfighters, that had the blue lights tucked into the nose fairing.
I reckon unmarked vehicles are just a bad idea. Will only slow down one person. A marked car will slow down everyone within sight of it.
Blue Flame
01-10-08, 11:02 PM
Aye, but the coppers not supposed to be one of them...
Don't give a ****. He has undertaken training that prepares him for riding in these conditions in order to attend incidents. Bear in mind that the camera makes things look closer to his bike than is the case. The fact of the matter is that without the video you all wouldn't be talking about it. That biker they pulled just brings us all down in the eyes of the public. Hopefully the idiots will take heed.
yorkie_chris
01-10-08, 11:07 PM
He was getting sucked into following the dude, says to me he had the red mist and wasn't fully in control. And he got left behind on the twisty bits, that says to me he needs to go do some more of that special training :-P
What was the point of racing the guy for as long as he did?
P.s I'm not sticking up for the chased guys behaviour here at all, I just think the coppers could have done it a bit more subtly without showing the general public 2 bikers riding like total f##knuts.
Blue Flame
01-10-08, 11:16 PM
He was getting sucked into following the dude, says to me he had the red mist and wasn't fully in control. And he got left behind on the twisty bits, that says to me he needs to go do some more of that special training :-P
What was the point of racing the guy for as long as he did?
P.s I'm not sticking up for the chased guys behaviour here at all, I just think the coppers could have done it a bit more subtly without showing the general public 2 bikers riding like total f##knuts.
Or have you considered that the camera shows objects closer to the police bike than they actually are? I didn't see any red mist or any stress in his voice that would have been evident if he was getting overly excited. The point of following him for so long is evident..... No excuses and an example of bad riding to all who witness the video.
There seems to be more criticism of the police and less of the biker in this series of posts. Somebody has to redress the balance :tongue:
Luckypants
01-10-08, 11:27 PM
I think most folks have condemned the convicted rider out of hand. There was some well shady riding there.
However, the criticism of the Police is valid (up to a point) as they are meant to be 'so good' and have safety paramount. A number of moves the Police rider were pretty dodgy, the speeds very high and it continued longer than was neccessary. The criticism comes from the fact the Police did not appear to follow their own publicised procedures.
Blue Flame
01-10-08, 11:31 PM
I think most folks have condemned the convicted rider out of hand. There was some well shady riding there.
Yeah. The 40's and 30's is particularily dangerous.
However, the criticism of the Police is valid (up to a point) as they are meant to be 'so good' and have safety paramount. A number of moves the Police rider were pretty dodgy, the speeds very high and it continued longer than was neccessary. The criticism comes from the fact the Police did not appear to follow their own publicised procedures.
Nah I don't agree for all of the reasons i have already said :tongue:
Nah I don't agree for all of the reasons i have already said :tongue:
Put in simple terms, so everyone and his blind rabid dog can understand, the police allowed this follow to continue for far too long, and put the lives of members of the public at risk by doing so. Had there been an incident involving the lead bike and another vehicle, the copper would have been hard pushed to stop or take avoiding action during ost of this particular follow. That would have caused additional damage amd possible injury to deal with. They could quite easily have created a road-block and stopped the biker about 3 miles into the follow. They had more than enough evidence to support any conviction they hoped to get by then.
In short, Sussex Police acted foolishly and despite eventually apprehending the biker and securing a conviction that took an idiot off the road, they have shown themselves to be no better than the guy they convicted.
I'm not against the Police following dangerously ridden/driven vehicles to gather evidence, but there's a limit as to how far they should take it. They had obviously planned this follow as they'd received complaints about the guy's riding. They could have planned in a road-block at the same time and got him off the road sooner, putting fewer lives at risk.
Blue Flame
02-10-08, 01:46 AM
Put in simple terms, so everyone and his blind rabid dog can understand, the police allowed this follow to continue for far too long, and put the lives of members of the public at risk by doing so. Had there been an incident involving the lead bike and another vehicle, the copper would have been hard pushed to stop or take avoiding action during ost of this particular follow. That would have caused additional damage amd possible injury to deal with. They could quite easily have created a road-block and stopped the biker about 3 miles into the follow. They had more than enough evidence to support any conviction they hoped to get by then.
In short, Sussex Police acted foolishly and despite eventually apprehending the biker and securing a conviction that took an idiot off the road, they have shown themselves to be no better than the guy they convicted.
I'm not against the Police following dangerously ridden/driven vehicles to gather evidence, but there's a limit as to how far they should take it. They had obviously planned this follow as they'd received complaints about the guy's riding. They could have planned in a road-block at the same time and got him off the road sooner, putting fewer lives at risk.
Nah I'm sorry. Still don't convince me. The police were quite sound in every respect.
Red Herring
02-10-08, 04:26 AM
Put in simple terms, so everyone and his blind rabid dog can understand, the police allowed this follow to continue for far too long, and put the lives of members of the public at risk by doing so............etc etc
..............They could have planned in a road-block at the same time and got him off the road sooner, putting fewer lives at risk.
I hadn't realised you were such an authority on such matters Lozzo.
As such you ought to know that the police are not allowed to set up "road blocks" under such circumstances. There are some fairly strict rules about pursuits and how they are concluded, especially those involving motorcycles, which is why several persons on here have pointed out this wasn't a pursuit because the police were making no attempt to stop the rider. A "follow" as the incident was described by the original OP (Blue Pete, and he should know) is where they monitor the progress of a vehicle in order to report it's location and to gather evidence, and that's exactly what the police rider was doing.
Now all the questions about why they kept up the follow for so long are good ones and I've already said that I thought it was unnecessary, however we don't know the full story or circumstance and to condemn it out of hand based on nothing but the video is a little reckless. Videos such as these are released into the public domain for lots of reasons by lots of people, sometimes legitimately, sometimes not. The end result is that we can all learn something from this, even if it is just a different view of police riders. What i do know is that a large number of adult male motorcyclists who should know better manage to kill themselves each year by riding like idiots, and strangely enough very few of them are policemen on unmarked motorcycles, which tends to suggest they aren't doing things to far wrong. Nobody is perfect and I'm sure both riders in this episode came away with a different point of view, however to slag off an entire police force based on one incident is no better than slagging off all motorcyclists based on this riders behaviour.
Why don't we all lighten up a bit and use this video for what it was intended, a little bit of entertainment, but a whole lot of education.
amnesia
02-10-08, 06:54 AM
...however we don't know the full story or circumstance and to condemn it out of hand based on nothing but the video is a little reckless.
The rider in question will be banned based on that video evidence. It clearly shows him riding like a loon.
Why should we not judge the Police riders actions based on the same video?
Out of interest, has anyone approached the Police in relation to this and asked these questions directly to them?
ethariel
02-10-08, 10:19 AM
Just typed war an peace out and deleted it.
1- trained does not mean 'I am right all the time'
2- Being followed at fast speed often eggs you on to go faster.
3- One rule for us and one rule for them even without lights/sirens or the use of a helicopter.
4- Lets all join the plod to get our jollies acting like a plonker and be able to say 'But i was just seeing how fast it would go incase i ever needed to do 190!, you see, i'm 'TRAINED' i am!!!!'
I hadn't realised you were such an authority on such matters Lozzo.
As such you ought to know that the police are not allowed to set up "road blocks" under such circumstances.
I'm not an authority on these matters (your sarcasm was duly noted and ignored), but I do know that I have been the intended subject of a road block set up by Bedfordshire Police after a similar follow by an unmarked car. This was some years ago and I was found not guilty in court after I proved the police officer following blatantly lied about his ability to hold with us in his statement.
In my case they blocked the road at Brogborough Hill with two Police Vauxhall Senators after a 7 mile follow, part of which was done at reasonable speed through traffic and a then fast blast along an empty dual carriageway. It was effective - they cut short the situation and got their suspects with no fuss.
Im surprised that the Police can no longer block the road to catch a suspect whose driving or riding is considered dangerous - whose stupid idea was that?
No such thing as a follow, if you're chasing someone its a pursuit. At those kinds of speeds particularly.
Tiger 55
02-10-08, 05:08 PM
No such thing as a follow, if you're chasing someone its a pursuit.
Might depend on the force but in Sussex (and Cleveland come to that) it only becomes a pursuit if the offender fails to stop when ordered. Since an unmarked bike with no lights would have no method of ordering him to stop this could never have been more than a follow.
As for the cost of the helicopter, Sussex don't charge their own cops for calling it out, although they take Kent for around £1000 per hour if it goes over the border. More likely it didn't turn up because it was broken.
Red Herring
02-10-08, 06:23 PM
I'm not an authority on these matters (your sarcasm was duly noted and ignored)
Sarcasm?..... me?
Come on Lozzo, your opening sentence was just ever so patronising don't you think?
Under current national TPAC (Tactical Pursuit and Containment) guidelines a road block (or solid stop) has to be authorised by an extremely high ranking officer and would never be considered to stop a speeding motorcyclist. The only Force I know not currently signed up to these guidelines is the Metropolitan, and even they can only use such force as is reasonable in the circumstance... If it happened to you then it was either years ago (Vauxhall Senators rather gives that away) before TPAC guidelines came in, or it shouldn't have been done, or you had done something far more serious than you are letting on.....
mark grinyer
02-10-08, 11:06 PM
That copper aint a proper biker IMO.
His riding was WORSE than the 'villian'. The training the police get may be intensive, but they are also taught to distance themselves from the situation mentally, and so not seeing red mist, this cop saw it big time. As for B&T's, there weren't any, other than behind the vectra at about 8min when he flashes them.
I might not have much experiance (10,000 on a 125) but from talking to my uncle (a class 1 police biker ie: the best) i can tell straight away the copper isnt using the machine he has to the best of his ability, he should be moving in the lane alot more, and waiting for the HGV's to pass rather than going inbetween
Me = not impressed
Uncle = annoyed at how someone can let the standards down, but then again, my uncle could just be a rareaty, a good 'un
davepreston
03-10-08, 09:05 PM
just putin my 10 pence in here
first in lancs where i live the police bike boys seem to be a decent lot and dont really do the unmarked bit the more you see them the better behaved you are seems to be their stick
its also my understanding that twice over the limit let alone 3 times is an instant ban
at first i thought it was going on that long to set up a stop further along but obviously not but just a quick one to throw out there its not unheard of for a "higher ranking officer" to hint that a longer video that could be used for public information purposes could be useful if an officer came across such an incident and "thought it safe" to continue
Red Herring
04-10-08, 12:10 PM
The rider in question will be banned based on that video evidence. It clearly shows him riding like a loon.
Why should we not judge the Police riders actions based on the same video?
Out of interest, has anyone approached the Police in relation to this and asked these questions directly to them?
There is a thread running on the ADUK forum where a police driving instructor has offered some advice....unfortunately he doesn't appear to have yet actually viewed the video, but I'm working on that.....
www.advanced-driving.co.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?t=2111&start=15
Red Herring
04-10-08, 12:41 PM
Sorry, just realised the discussion is in their "members only" area so you might not be able to view it, I'll keep you posted if they offer a really good explanation!
Just my 2 pence worth. I am only a Standard Response police rider in london not many nationals here (the next and highest level is Advance). I wouldnt have been happy following at those speeds. I would not have followed for long.
I agree with other people that 5 mins of footage though a number of different areas eg built up slow speeds and nationals would have been enough.
He took some risks in my mind. Risks that were not worth it. I dont want to die at work is the bottom line!!
Ch00
BanannaMan
05-10-08, 03:56 AM
Call off a pursuit???
I hear they do that sort of thing in California...
But here in the Commonwealth of Virginia a 100+ mph police follow will end with your being crashed/shot/killed ...any or all of the above. (legally)
They WILL stop you...whatever it takes.
the_lone_wolf
05-10-08, 08:20 AM
Call off a pursuit???
I hear they do that sort of thing in California...
But here in the Commonwealth of Virginia a 100+ mph police follow will end with your being crashed/shot/killed ...any or all of the above. (legally)
They WILL stop you...whatever it takes.
will they do it if you're white as well?
Red Herring
05-10-08, 11:55 AM
For those critics of the police riding, and those calling for him to also be prosecuted, you might want to read this. It's very heavy going, uses lots of long words, and will certainly test your dedication.......good luck!
http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2007/532.html
yorkie_chris
05-10-08, 01:02 PM
Well I've got about halfway down the document and given up, but at first glance it looks like that sets a precedent for him to get a shafting...
It's freaking ridiculous.
Surely the point of a pursuit is to stop the pursued, to protect the public. If he has no way of demonstrating that his unmarked bike is in fact a police bike, and that he is actually a police officer, then he is of very little use in this situation, except to add to the speeds, and to increase the danger to other road users. No blue lights flashing, no siren, might as well be another idiotic member of the public who genuinely does want to race!
I wouldn't have minded so much if he'd actually made an attempt to stop him somehow in one of the low speed sections where he just follows dutifully with no interest in ending the chase to protect the public, he seemed to be letting it go on for as long as possible.
A police car may have ended this in 30 seconds (unless of course they don't put blues and sirens in unmarked cars round there either!). This guy plays high-speed pursuit for 15 minutes, for fun? No excuses, something is seriously wrong there, it's like he just wants it to end tragically. Imagine the same scenario but with 2 high-performance cars and the same level of risk in the driving, no attempts to stop the pursued, no blues, no siren, just following for 15 minutes, and of course the commentary on how much danger the pursued car is putting everyone in........ Crazy!
Biker Biggles
05-10-08, 01:24 PM
I read the link to the court case.It was the appeal of the cop who took his Vectra for a "spin" at about 150MPH on the motorway,110 on an A road,and 60 through a 30 limit urban road.He won the appeal on the grounds that he was a class 1 trained driver,and therefore his driving was not dangerous.It wasnt a pursuit or a follow,it was to "familiarise" himself with the cars abilities.Im not sure what its relevance is to this case though????Red Herring???
Biker Biggles
05-10-08, 02:02 PM
Or are you suggesting that the rider in the video was not dangerous in law because he was a class 1 trained rider,so the normal rules dont apply?
If so I dont buy that.I do agree that highly trained class one drivers and riders have greater skills and abilities than the rest of us,but not to the extent that they often like to think they do.In this case(the video above)I think the "follow" was high risk,and went on far beyond what was acceptable,and I believe that this probably happened because of the attitudes that exist among the class one fraternity.There is a certain hubris and superiority complex here that I believe is the cause of many accidents in the police(and other emergency services).These people are by no means infallible,and I speak as someone who has seen the results of that fallibility.
*******, thats all i should say......
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