Oil Burning when cold.

[Owenski]

To get you up to speed:

On start up (mainly morning starts) its stinks like the oil is burning.
First thought was to change the oil, so I did... changed the filter too just for good measure. So again I use the bike and find that on a cold start there is a LOT of smoke and burning oil.
Oil is new, Filter is new, Choke switch is functioning correctly, Oil levels are between F and E lines.

Any ideas what may be causing it? It was embarrasing this morning when I pulled up at the bottom of the road an was caught up by a white cloud of smoke shortly after. :(

[yorkie_chris]

Piston rings, compression test time.

[cymroboi]

:smt064 have you checked the air filter ????? :rolleyes:

[Owenski]

:smt064 have you checked the air filter ????? :rolleyes:

No, your navigator pic is quality

[cymroboi]

i used to have a similar problem with my old gasgas tx 280 ,not saying it is that but get it checked first ,dose it clear up after it gets warm ????

yes thats what you call a proper hot dog lol

[Owenski]

Seems to clear up, ie when I get home I've forgotten about it.

[Owenski]

Piston rings, compression test time.

YC, how would I check that stuff out?

[Owenski]

If it helps the fireing pops arnt contant its not like a regular missfire or anything its just when its on idle tick over is sometimes seems to fire twice really quick.

[yorkie_chris]

Compression test is easy but you need a compression tester. (I need to get myself one after mine went walkabout)

Leakdown test would also do the trick. I'll see about building another tester if you wanna pop over to Hfax?

[Owenski]

That'd be fantastic mate cheers, it'll be a while off though.
Building this weekend and away next so when ever your free 18th onwards then I'll make the trip. PM me details

[Biker Biggles]

Does it actually use much oil,ie do you have to top it up a lot?If not it might be no big deal.

[punyXpress]

You sure it really is oil burning & not water vapour ?
Oil burn wouldn't vary that much when engine heats up. ( would probably get worse ? )

[dizzyblonde]

Does it do it just when the choke is on?

Mines started doing this, and its a very reliable engine(as I just bloody bought the damn thing from a reliable source) but just on choke. It stinks to high heavens and billows out smoke like no tomorrow, as soon as it hits 3k revs. Once off, perfectly fine, no smoke on riding, and no smoke if I stop somewhere and start it again.

[Rhys]

If it is oil(white smoke), then it's your valve seals. When the engine gets hot it aint a problem because the valves etc expand and seal. As your engine cools it contracts and excess oil runs down the valve stem. If it was the rings it would just pump out white smoke all the time.

[jambo]

If it is oil(white smoke), then it's your valve seals. When the engine gets hot it aint a problem because the valves etc expand and seal. As your engine cools it contracts and excess oil runs down the valve stem. If it was the rings it would just pump out white smoke all the time.

I'd suggest this isn't quite correct.

One of the common issue is that when the engine gets up to temperature, any oil making it into the combustion chamber (assuming that this is actually the problem), starts being burned completely in the high temperatures. It's still being burned, and consumed, but you can't see the product of incomplete combustion (smoke), which you can when it's cold.

For now we still have to establish that it's actually burning oil, and that if it is it's not just down to some oil in the air box or similar. We're a way off condemning the valve train components.

Jambo

[Zen Beetle]

If it smokes when you open the throttle its probably the piston rings. On the other hand, if it smokes when you close the throttle (on the over-run) then its the valve seals. Either way the smoking and the burning of oil will increase with time. For the time being, and as jambo suggested, better make sure that its actually burning oil before going to the trouble and expense of renewing your piston rings or seals.

[Owenski]

It is definetly burning oil, the smell is distinctive. Dizzy you may be developing the same problem Im having because it was only on choke is how it started for me. Only thing is that now its for a little while after I've switched off the choke too. Oh and I only notice it when the throttle is closed, I cant see any smoke in my mirrors while riding nor can I smell anything until Im stationary.

[Zen Beetle]

The best way to check whether its the valve seals is to have a mate of yours follow you and notice what happens when you close the throttle at junctions etc. If the exhaust smokes as you close the throttle from speed then its the valve seals. Opening the throttle up as you would do on the motorway wouldn't cause smoke unless its the piston rings. A mechanic friend of mine correctly diagnosed this problem on my BMW R100RS and fixed it by changing the valve seals. What mileage has your SV done? I ask this because valve seals are more likely to need replacing on higher mileage engines. As I said in my last posting, if it is the valve seals then the smoking will get progressively worse with time making it obvious that they need sorting.

[Zen Beetle]

Just noticed, I meant to say valve guides and not valve seals. Sorry.

[MattCollins]

Zen, open throttle smoking is often caused by dodgy exhaust valve stem seals. Closed throttle intake valve seals and rings can go either way... often both. :)

Cheers

[Owenski]

Zen thats brilliant mate, ill get some one to do the diagnosis on the smoke relating to throttle position and get back to ya.

[Owenski]

Forgot to add its a 30k engine mate.

[I'm_a_Newbie]

White smoke in winter when engine cold = condensation in the exhaust.
White smoke all the time = failed head gasket or cracked cylinder head etc.
Blue smoke = burning oil
Black smoke = fuel mixture too rich.

Tim

[punyXpress]

White smoke in winter when engine cold = condensation in the exhaust.
White smoke all the time = failed head gasket or cracked cylinder head etc.
Blue smoke = burning oil
Black smoke = fuel mixture too rich.

Tim

Or filled with DERV ?

[yorkie_chris]

Or filled with DERV ?

Pete?

[Owenski]

White smoke in winter when engine cold = condensation in the exhaust.
White smoke all the time = failed head gasket or cracked cylinder head etc.
Blue smoke = burning oil
Black smoke = fuel mixture too rich.

Tim


NOT GOOD!

It isnt all the time though thats the thing. Its only until she's warmed up. I've had someone follow me now and as it stands its when she's cold and only if the throttle is closed (although when shes first started and choke is on then opening the throttle causes it to get worse breifly but I dont know if thatts just it all been pushed through.

I use it for 16miles to work and the same again on the way home every day come rain or shine so it wont be the condensation and as I mentioned the smell is of burning oil.

[Zen Beetle]

mmmmm. Is it when she's cold or when she's warmed up? Sorry for the confusion but your description sounds a little ambiguous. Did she smoke when you decelerated? Is she smoking out of one exhaust or both? Checking your oil level, approximately how much oil are you burning/loosing?

I suggest you buy yourself a compression tester (I have a Gunson's HiGauge from Halfords) as a careful comparison of the readings of the compression pressure for each cylinder will indicate the likely cause of the fault/s.

This comparison is made using suzuki's recommended levels for both cylinders (Haynes Manuel has this as 213psi / 15.0 Bar). It is normally accepted that a variation of more than 1 Bar (15psi) between the two cylinders is an indication of a fault. A reading lower than 156 psi / 11.0 Bar (the service limit) indicates a substantial loss of compression.

Poor cylinder bore and piston ring condition may be checked by pouring no more than a teaspoon of engine oil into the suspect cylinder through the spark plug hole. Re-check the compression pressure. If there is a substantial improvement in compression pressure then worn bore and/or piston rings is indicated. If no improvement is seen then poorly seating valves or a leaking head gasket is indicated.

[Bibio]

gummed up piston rings perhaps?

[Owenski]

mmmmm. Is it when she's cold or when she's warmed up? Sorry for the confusion but your description sounds a little ambiguous. Did she smoke when you decelerated? Is she smoking out of one exhaust or both? Checking your oil level, approximately how much oil are you burning/loosing?


Its only when shes cold mate once warm she seems fine.
Dont appologise mate, my writing is terrible and your only tryin to help. Plus I dont know what ambiguous means.
Hmm not sure, by the time I was at the motorway (half mile) there was no smoke or smell.
Single exhaust anyway bud.
Normally Id only check it once a month (if that) and ususally she'd need some putting in but not much. If its worse than normal its nothing dramatic.

[Zen Beetle]

From your description it doesn't sound as bad as I originally suspected. In my case my BMW was smoking on the over-run and loosing oil so badly that I was pretty sure it was the valve guides at fault. While I had the head off I also thought it prudent (bearing in mind the bike had done 50,000 miles) to also put new piston rings and also have the cylinders honed. I don't think you need to do such drastic action but I do advise you to have a compression test (as I described in my previous posting). The fact that its smoking on one exhaust probably means that the compression for that cylinder is low. Only a compression test will verify this. Otherwise, keep an eye out on that oil level and provided you're not loosing oil in worrying amounts it may be nothing particularly sinister to worry about.

[dizzyblonde]

Lee, do you do what I do, and warm the bike up on choke 'at a stand still' ?

Or do you pull on choke, press the starter button, and ride off with the choke on for a very short time?

[I'm_a_Newbie]

I have not read the whole thread, so sorry if somone else has suggested this.

Have you checked on the colour of your oil. If there is any sign of it looking like a creamy sludge then coolant has managed to mix with the oil. There can be several reasons for this, the most common of which is a blown head gasket.

Check you coolant level. If it has gone down and there is no visible leak then this is a real possibility.

Tim

[Owenski]

rite ill have a look at the compression and at the coolant level. but i go on my jollies on wednesday so I may go quiet for a while. When I come back I hopefully i will be able to provide a bit more information.

[Owenski]

Lee, do you do what I do, and warm the bike up on choke 'at a stand still' ?

Or do you pull on choke, press the starter button, and ride off with the choke on for a very short time?

Hey dizzy, I start her up and let her run on the choke give it a few twists and knock it to half choke (so its sitting at 2000rpm) while i put my gloves on then get on ride the 25yrds to the end of my street an turn the choke off completely.

[yorkie_chris]

The choke should make no difference to oil flow/control.

[dizzyblonde]

BUT, Chris in my case it does, as soon as the chokes knocked off...it goes away!


confused. I know it doesn't make sense, but thats how it happens

[Owenski]

BUT, Chris in my case it does, as soon as the chokes knocked off...it goes away!

confused. I know it doesn't make sense, but thats how it happens

my previous post was for your benifit I kinda thought it as a sub topic to the thred. Seen as yours is starting to have the same problem and seemingly the same symptoms as mine.

How's yours going Dizzy? How often do you ride her?

[dizzyblonde]

At the moment I'm riding her once or twice a week, for over 50 miles or so in one go. Or I do about 200 :-)

I'm not overly worried at the moment, I've only had the new engine in there a couple of months now, and shes been stood for that, shes due an oil change anyway, which has no bearing on whats going on.

We won;t be going down any engine out and fiddling route anytime soon! I am just interested to find out what you may find, so I can watch out for it, as yes there is a comparison going on here ;-)

[Alpinestarhero]

BUT, Chris in my case it does, as soon as the chokes knocked off...it goes away!


confused. I know it doesn't make sense, but thats how it happens

Here's another question; what if you knock the choke off, but then raise the revs using the throttle to 2.5 / 3k rpm? does oil appear to be burning then?

[dizzyblonde]

nope ASH it doesn't, it only happens when the chokes on.

[Alpinestarhero]

hmmm, odd indeed.

[Owenski]

Here's another question; what if you knock the choke off, but then raise the revs using the throttle to 2.5 / 3k rpm? does oil appear to be burning then?


I'll have a whirl and see what I get.

[Alpinestarhero]

I'm wondering if it ight at all be possible to condense some of the exhaust vapour in a glass bottle or something...then you can see if you get oil...? Might be a bit difficult to get alot though. And I'm possibly now thinking about things way too much as a chemist

[yorkie_chris]

The fact that its smoking on one exhaust

The 650 only has one exhaust to smoke from.

Also the twin can systems as on the thou are linked in between cylinders.

[punyXpress]

I'm wondering if it ight at all be possible to condense some of the exhaust vapour in a glass bottle or something...then you can see if you get oil...? Might be a bit difficult to get alot though. And I'm possibly now thinking about things way too much as a chemist

Would a condom do ? :confused:

[abdul.aziz]

Would a condom do ? :confused:

LMAO


I suspect it wont. I dont think a condom is sufficently transparent.

[skumlerud]

Any ideas what may be causing it? It was embarrasing this morning when I pulled up at the bottom of the road an was caught up by a white cloud of smoke shortly after. :(

White smoke when cold sounds like water or coolant to me, not oil. Water condensation doesn't smell, but coolant will. It's not unusual to have a small crack in the cylinder head gasket that closes up as the engine heats up, thus leaking only when cold. I've seen this many times on car engines.

I would suggest starting the engine when it's cold and let it run for a minute or so. Then stop it and pull out the plugs. If it burns coolant the plug in the affected cylinder will be discoloured.

[embee]

Just as a little background info.....

When you first start an engine from cold, the water vapour produced from the combustion (perfectly normal, hydrocarbon fuel + oxygen = CO2 + H2O ) will first condense in the cold exhaust pipe, so you usually don't see any at the tailpipe immediately.

Then as the system warms it evaporates what has condensed early on, the vapour gets further down the line before condensing again, so it builds-up towards the tailpipe.

It then reaches the point where the system is warm enough that the vapour from the combustion doesn't condense out inside the exhaust and reaches the tailpipe. When it hits the cold air it condenses and shows as white "vapour".

The water sitting in the exhaust also then starts to get vapourised again so adds to the effect, so you tend to see it getting more pronounced for a short time.

As it heats up more, the tailpipe gas temperature is high enough that the water vapour has a chance to disperse before it does eventually condense out, but by that time it is too dilute to show up, so it appears that the "smoke" has stopped.

If you're running with choke on, the enrichment means that high levels of unburnt hydrocarbons are being carried in the vapour and the heavier fractions will condense in the water droplets, and it could simply be this that you are smelling.

[svtomo]

oil makes blue smoke not white(as pointed out already), and if it was head gasket/ cracked head it would usually become more difficult to start as it got worse. the easiest way to check would be to whip the plugs out in the morning and with a thin torch look at the crown of the pistons to see if there is anything getting in. they should look black and rough, if they look clean and polished then that is a sign of water/coolant has been in the bore, and obviously if you actually see any fluids its bad!

[injury_ian]

How much oil is she burning, I.e. how often are you topping up the oil?

I can use up to a sump* / 2000miles depending on hooliganism.

* anyone know the litreage between min and max?

[Owenski]

ok, so Im back from my jollies. Unfortunatly the little mechanic faries havnt been to magically fix the problem during my time away. So...

Folloing the advice of some bloke over there I will be draining the oil down to minimum level. Starting it at cold to see if the problem persists, if that seems to clear it then I have a compression problem.

also...

As I cant tell if its white or blue smoke but I can definetly smell buring oil. It may be that the oil may is on the exhaust/engine block from a spill during filling.
So he advised to clean the engine externally with some de-greasing agent and make sure its a good clean. Then run it and see if the smell has gone.
If the smell has gone and the smoke remains then its coolant.

Failing that does anyone know a trusty mechanic in the Cleck-Huddis-fax area?

[Owenski]

Forgot to add, svtomo its been like this for a while now there seems no change in the starting I push the button and she turns first time everytime.

The only thing which seems to be getting worse is that the zaust seems to be getting louder and its popping/back fireing a lot more often. The deceleration down the motorway slip road feels like Im been hammered from behind as it pops and booms its way to a slow roll.

[injury_ian]

If you're not using fluids, then it is unlikely you are burning said fluids, how full is the radiator / coolant bottle?

[Owenski]

tbh I havnt thought to check.

[skumlerud]

tbh I havnt thought to check.

Take your bike to a professional mechanic and let it sit overnight. Start it up in the morning the way you usually do and let the mechanic look at and smell the exhaust. He can probably tell you right away what's happening.

[Owenski]

lol, I like your thinking.
I did that straight away the mechanic I use said "hmmm dunno matt I'd need to have a closer look" brilliant as I cant really afford the time or money for him to be takin a closer look. Hence try to diagnose it with your assistance.

Ian, I've just been out to check the coolant level and its fine mate if anything its above the max level lol. I've had the bike a year now and I've never topped the coolant up so that cant be the problem. We can tick coolant off the list lol.

If anyone is heading over to squires on the 22nd I'll do my best to get over there you might have a better chance of helping if you can see for your selves.


*EDIT* forgot to add, what is the best cleaning agent you can suggest? will that "muck off" do the job?

[skumlerud]

The only thing which seems to be getting worse is that the zaust seems to be getting louder and its popping/back fireing a lot more often. The deceleration down the motorway slip road feels like Im been hammered from behind as it pops and booms its way to a slow roll.

Sounds like an air leak. Is this an original exhaust system? On my bike the clamp on the front pipe (where it connects to the collector) rusted off, causing the same symptoms as you describe.

Could also be the valves, has the valve clearance been checked at the recommended intervals?

[Owenski]

Sounds like an air leak. Is this an original exhaust system? On my bike the clamp on the front pipe (where it connects to the collector) rusted off, causing the same symptoms as you describe.

Could also be the valves, has the valve clearance been checked at the recommended intervals?


I hope your rite fella and its just the zaust clamp!
I didnt think to check that either. Its a good job im not employed as a thinker :rolleyes: I cant go out and check now though as lunch is over. It bad enough I'm still messing on here but boss man will be ****ed if I jog off outside and start to tinker.

General oppinion is that it'll be the valves following all the things we've already ruled out. In which case I need a phone number for a reccomended monkey in my area who can be trusted.

[skumlerud]

General oppinion is that it'll be the valves following all the things we've already ruled out. In which case I need a phone number for a reccomended monkey in my area who can be trusted.

Don't bring your bike to a shop and tell them to fix your valves. They'll do just that and there's a good chance that this does not fix your problem. Tell them what the problem is and let they figure out the actual problem.

I don't think it's the valves, and it doesn't sound like you're burning oil. AFAICR you state that your bike only smokes when it's cold and when you're using the choke. The smoke is most likely water condensation and the smell is most likely unburnt fuel. I don't think there's something seriously wrong with your bike.

If you're really burning oil, the smoke will be blue, not white. The amount of smoke will not in any way be related to the use of choke. Does it smoke when you start the bike cold, switch of the choke and rev it with the throttle instead of the choke? If not, then you're not burning oil or coolant.

If the smoke always goes away when you switch off the choke, you're not burning oil or coolant.

I'm a bit surprised that your mechanic could not tell if the smoke smelled of oil or petrol. That suggests that the exhaust smelled quite normal, and that the white smoke is just water condensation.

[Owenski]

Don't bring your bike to a shop and tell them to fix your valves.
it doesn't sound like you're burning oil. AFAICR I don't think there's something seriously wrong with your bike.
If the smoke always goes away when you switch off the choke, you're not burning oil or coolant.
I'm a bit surprised that your mechanic could not tell if the smoke smelled of oil or petrol.


The plan was: if after .org help, had I decided it was something that NEEDED attention then I wanted to be able to give a mechanic as much info as possible. So that its not sat in the garage for 2 weeks until he gets round to taking a look. Every day I dont have the bike is a massive pain! ie public transport for me, that adds 1.5hours onto my journey to and from work, getting up at 6 and not home until 7.

Again this is brilliant news, We're slowly ruling out all the worrying stuff. Hopefully in future when someone has a similar problem they can read this thred and go through it to narrow down what thier problem may be.

I'll check this out, but it will be in the morning when I'll next have chance.

Lol missunderstood, he couldnt tell me what it was burning it had warmed up long before I got it to him. He never saw it happen, becuase he didnt see it at cold. All he could do was tell me he'd need a closer look. Last time he took a closer look he had her for a week only to tell me that my brakes were sticking which was the reason I took it down
Me: "can you sort out my brakes please they seem to be sticking"
Mech: "I'll take a closer look"
1 week later
Me: "any joy?"
Mech: "its your brakes... they're sticking, do you want them fixing"
Me: NO ****! neither me or the bike have ever been back other than to ask this question about the smoking.

[dizzyblonde]

LEEDSMATT......I suggest a quiet chinwag with YorkieChris...

:-)

SV mechanicking in Halifax a speciality.

[Biker Biggles]

So after all that-----It doesnt lose any coolant,and it doesnt lose significant amount of oil.and its fine when warmed up.

Scuse my stupidity but whats the problem again????

[dizzyblonde]

It stinks like hell on start up and billows smoke out of the exhaust like an elephant farting on last nights chiili???? ;-)

[Biker Biggles]

Yeah but we all do that first thing in the morning.

[Owenski]

Scuse my stupidity but whats the problem again????

as dizzy said, the problem been the thick white smoke but the question was to find if the problem was worth worrying about. Tomorrow morning I should know for sure and Ill let you all know. :) I know dizzy has been quite keen to see how it turns out loll.

Yeah but we all do that first thing in the morning.

loll, fair one!

[yorkie_chris]

Me: "can you sort out my brakes please they seem to be sticking"
Mech: "I'll take a closer look"
1 week later
Me: "any joy?"
Mech: "its your brakes... they're sticking, do you want them fixing"
Me: NO ****! neither me or the bike have ever been back other than to ask this question about the smoking.


Sounds like the useful sort :rolleyes:

What time do you leave for work?

[Owenski]

What time do you leave for work?


About 8ish,

Tried it this morning with choke of and a wound it on to 3k, it seemed to clear what was already in the pipe then no more. Switch choke back on an smoke-a-rama again.

Havn't drained it down yet but from what everyone's said I'm not too worried now. Plus its been 3week since I started this thred and she hasnt blown up yet so I guess its nothing serious.